Geoff_BWell the last government scrubbed most of the UK weapon intergration as it would cost too much and as the AMRAAM and Paveway IV would be covered by the US they were deemed OK. Stormshadow appears to be the only one earmarked to go through the weapons qualification program as thats needed for the stand off carrier strike role. Be interesting if the F-35B is capable of carrying a pair of storm shadows or more importantly being able to bring them back if not used !!!
I got the impression when they canned the other weapons that most would either be replaced by the time the F-35 entered service or we would put them through once the flight test program had settled down and it should be cheaper and quicker to get whatever else is needed qualified. Of course the coding constraints means all these programs have to be done and managed by LM which may also be a factor.
Geoff_B[QUOTE=Jonesy;1632490]Nocuts,
Problem with that alternate approach though is that 3 BPE’s couldnt match the UK Carrier Strike requirement. STOVL CVF can.
QUOTE]
Erm Jonsey i hate to say it but the MoD only selected the F-35B as the preferred option on condition it was able to meet the requiremnts of JCA.
At present it is still in the flight test stage so hasn’t be able to prove this yet, nor has it done its sea trials to assess its suitablity for operating off a carrier.
If you check the interview with the RAF Air Marshall at Farnborough when questioned on the F-35B he clearly states there are serious concerns about both the price and the if the aircraft will be able meet the JCA requirement.
Unlike your unbounded confidence in what LM say about the F-35B, the MoD have been somewhat more cautious, especially after the weight cockup. They know the F-35B is a new and complex design and there is a fair risk that the aircraft may not meet specification or just cost too much to be able to achieve that. The order of the day was to carry on with the assumption that the F-35B would be the final choice but leave enough leeway to switch to CATOBAR should it fail. They were never going make the final selection till the F-35B had done its sea trials and the results assessed, so all this talk of its too late to switch to CATOBAR is cobblers as the window was still open till 2012 !
It could still go the way of the RAH-66 Commanche, the Crusader and get stuck in the doldrums like the other USMC high teck risky projects the CV-22 and EFV. Both high tech solutions to replace rather straight forward workhorses (Ch-46 & AAVTP), and both stuggling to achieve this.
The problem is how much the SDSR review have assessed the Carrier Strike program, its capability and potential. If they have deemed it to play an even greater role in future policy then they may well have determined that a CATOBAR option is the worth investing in now rather than later and thus forced the final JCA decision earlier than anticipated.
Hmmn you do realise that they may well stick to the original plan and let the MoD review and compare the performance and costs of the various contenders once all have done their initial operational format flight testing at the end of 2011 !!, for all the talk and discussion on this and similar forums there may well be no announcement on the aircraft or the final format of the carriers come October :dev2:
Geoff
Geoff_BDon’t you start miss-quoting me too, I never said the government were stupid.
Feckless and idle maybe but stupid? Never.
Anyway I hope you are right I just have my doubts.
For example. Who was the bright spark who decided that fitting the F4 Phantom with Spey engines was going to be a great idea? Brilliant for industry but the cost overruns were horrendous and that was the MoD budget that copped out. And talk about Heath Robinson for what? Better acceleration and slow speed performance? Was it worth it?
How much was thrown at the AEW Nimrod program before it was scrapped? How much did we spend on the SHARs before they were retired? Again, industry did well, the defence budget got smacked about the place. Need I got on?
It doesn’t matter if it happened or happens because the government are stupid (your words, not mine) idle or feckless, the outcome is the same. Industry 1, defence budget minus anybody’s guess.
Actually with the Phantom that was more US marketing over playing the Phantoms actual ability. In the early 60’s it was pushed as the super interceptor to put all other carrier based interceptors in the shade which is when the FAA took a shine to it as a mach2 fighter armed with 4 sparrow and 4 winders was far beyond the current Sea Vixen or planned P1154 capabilities.
However McDD was telling porkies about how good it was, as its low speed handling limited it to Super Carriers, it wasn’t safe to use off the USN modernised Essex class and not even the largest UK carriers. Thats where the Speys came in and even then the carriers cycle was only just in safe margins (try and spot an armed FAA toom aboard ship, withs its full load of AAMs ?). McDD actually used the Spey powered version as a basis for their F-4HL (High Lift) version which was intended to replace the FAA FG1s and allow the type to operate safely off Essex class and replace the Crusaders. This had a larger and reshaped wing to allow for slower landing speeds on shorter decks along withn better lift on take off.
Anyway back to the F-35B, its pointless trying to estimate the costs of STOVL operations until this type has done its operational evaluation and sea trials. We don’t know yet what it can and cannot do or what sort of costs are involved in keeping the aircraft flying at sea. You can’t really trust LM’s predictions as they haven’t been all that great with them so far. CATOBAR operations with F-18E are known however, although not with the EMALS and new arrestor gear, although that may actually reduce wear & tear costs.
Geoff_BWhip Aerials for the radio system, they are stored in the verticle position but drop to horizontal for flight deck ops.
They are no longer on the current design as those comms systems not using satalite systems will have any aerials on the island.
Geoff_BExcept for the fact that CVF is more than twice the tonnage (and cost?) of the Spanish and Italian carriers.
Because if we wanted a little STOVL carrier or an LPA then we would have ordered one. We didn’t need an LPA because we have excessive maratime lift with the Ocean, Albion, & Bay class. What we lacked was the ability to project airpower, we went for a design capable of supporting 40 aircraft rather than 20, with a large flight decks with deck edge lifts so flight ops are not interupted and aircraft can be refuelled and rearmed around the deck edge rather than having tio be returned to the hanger as they are on smaller STOVL carriers.
I rather suspect the difference in capacity between Hermes & Invincible during the Falklands War probably had some influence on thier requirements, where the larger hanger and flightdeck of hermes was used to the maximum effect to sustain air power over the battlespace.
G
Geoff_BInteresting video from the RAF chief, seems the MoD are concerned over the cost of the F-35B and if it will meet their JCA requirement, the problem being the results and analysis from the trials won’t be known till after the SDR, so it will be a case of keeping faith that the F-35B will do all that LM predict it will without any further issues or do they go with whatever else is available ?
Geoff
Geoff_B…during the Falklands, “Sea Harrier fighters had to be in the right place by luck in order to repel Argentine airstrikes”. (So 20+-0 air/air kills in the Shars favour was “luck”, is what he’s more or less saying…Nice one)
No we used radar pickets of Type 42s plus Type 22 as early warning for strikes and used them to pre-position Shars to be in the best place to intercept. But we do lose Sheffield to Exocet and Coventry to bombs whilst in that role. 20+ -0 ratio is good but a hell of alot of aircraft did get through to bomb their targets and we lost many fine men as a result.
BTW did you know that the Sea king AEW platform that was rushed through when the war started was originally proposed in the late 60’s when the Ganet’s days were numbered and the carriers with them. It was offered to Egypt in the 70s for patrols along Sinai, so it something we could have had with us with a bit of foresight rather than a UOR too late to be of value during the conflict (its done sterling service since however)
G
Geoff_BThe F35B is a very expensive plane to buy, but it will be overall far cheaper to operate in the long term.
You cant say that, the Harrier as an example of STOVL aircraft is relatively cheap to operate but difficult to fly in the VTOL environment. This due mainly to its simple design and sturdy engineering and reliable kit
However the F-35B is designed to be easier to fly but uses alot of complex technology to achieve this which won’t be fullt vetted till USMC sea trials next year.
Therfore You can’t say it will be cheaper to operate, as there are no facts yet just LMs predictions and so far they have not been that fantatic at it. The F-35B could be as service intensive as the F-14, which could be even worse for the Lightning II as they require back to manufacturer if anything can’t be readily accessed and swapped out.
Considering the failed to manage the budget, the weight issue which forced a crash diet and revision of capabilities, The F-35B had unpredicted component failure after its first STOVL flight program, the actual landing produced unpredicted figures that didnt match thier models, and they have found the jet blast has a serious effect on the landing surfaces.
So we’ll have to wait and see how the F-35B flight testing and sea trials go before we can gauge how capable and suitable the aircraft actually will be. The trouble is the aircraft should have done this by now so the UK MoD would be able to make a decision based on fact ……
G
Geoff_BWell the if the Pilots are getting full training now then i suspect these are going to be the senior pilots & instructors for when the JCA arrive so they can establish a training program.
Flight deck crew wouldn’t start their training till the carriers are nearlly done, and the first aircraft in UK hands (which ever they may be).
If Super Hornets then they will have to await on EMALs and the new arrestor gear anyway.
Geoff
Geoff_BI suspect you have hit the nail on the head as to reasoning behind the Superbug rumour, the SDR is looking at future capability and co-operation as part of justification for what we get left with following the culling.
I’m not so sure about the RAF resistance now as all service chiefs were at the meetings where this was supposed to be leaked from. They appear to be keeping a very low profile, so Super Hornet may be seen as a lifeline for their strike crews and as importantly their bomber squadrons such as 617; Although they would probably be expected to deploy to for carrier operations as part of their duty.
Anyway its all speculation at present, October should indicate what fate may bring.
(Anybody else wondering if one of those in Fox’s team runing the SDR have recently read Phoenix Squadron ? And and as a result asked if CVF could do the same mission with F-35B and if not why and therefore are there any alternatives which would allow us to do so ? – You can just imagine its one of those awkward questions a politician would ask and one the service chiefs would be least expecting )
Sign In
