Originally posted by PhantomII
… the F-4 … yet it remains the backbone of both the IRIAF and the IDF/AF…….

What is the problem here?

The F-4 is as good as withdrawn from Israeli service, if not completely by now. You are right about it still being in use in considerable numbers in Iran, but you are most delusional in your ‘backbone of the IDF/AF’-statement. The Pahtom might have been that 25 years ago, it definately has lost that title a long time ago.

Hey, Israel even supplied the Ayatollah’s with Phantom spares. Can’t say Israel hasn’t tried to befriend the Islamic Republic of Iran…

However, i just can’t see how Israel could pull that one off. The routes to the targets are firstly very long (as Seahawk stated, the Iranian nuclear facilities aren’t exactly conveniently located for an attack. Also, it isn’t like the countries in between are really eager to allow F-15I’s to overfly their territory to and from the targets in Iran. No matter how much most Arab states dislike the Persians, Israel is outhated by far.

Let’s just look at the potential ingress/egress routes, not even thinking yet about Iran’s own defences:
– over Saudi Arabia, Persian Gulf:
They did this with the Osirak strike, but the RSAF didn’t have any AWACS back then. Since flying over SA would take quite some time, i doubt this would be a good idea. Even a poorly organised airforce as the RSAF is often stated to be will be able to scramble an interception party for a bunch of intruders still some 600kms out.

– Jordan, Iraq
Militarily less of a problem, but from a political point of view too stupid even for Sharon. Flying over Jordan would enrage one of the few Arab countries which has agreed to a peaceful coexistance with Israel. Flying over Iraq would be even stupider: while the IqAF obviously is no threat anymore, i don’t think the Iraqi population would be happy – and (quite rightfully) blame the US as well as the Israelis. I don’t think this is exactly helpful in bringing peace to Iraq. It would be an interesting scenario though: i would love to see an Israeli aircraft strike being engaged by the US, although i’m not sure the latter won’t have the guts for that. I do think this is the kind of political brinkmanship Sharon is keen on.

– Syria, Iraq
Same problem as above, but in this scenario the IDF/AF would need a whole bunch of SEAD aircraft to get through Syria. Politically, i don’t think the Syrian-influenced terrorist groups would leave such an action unanswered either.

– Med, Turkey
Again, this is AWACS-controlled territory. I don’t think it’s politically possible: the Turks would not allow it, and doing it secretly is impossible.

Erez wrote

Israel will have to destroy these facilities. We are talking about life and death here.

By that logic, Dimona should be destroyed as well.

Now THAT is a good question! I’m particularly fond of Pili Pili, Mme Jaenette and Rawitt myself. Those big ones are nice to stuff, but don’t have too much flavour me thinks.

Originally posted by Viper01
…does not (in any way possible) mean that I support the vicious crimes carried out by terrorists from Hamas, Al-Aqsa etc. against Israeli civilians and military personnel.

Wuss! I actually think that settlers and the IDF are legitimate targets for the terrorists, as those are the ones occupying Palestinian territory. On the other hand, as any sane person I am absolutely disgusted by attacks on civilian targets in ‘Israel proper’. In fact, i seriously think that if those terrorist *******s could just limit their attacks on more legitimate targets (=military ones and settlers), it would become hard not to label them as freedom fighters rather than terrorists.

As for the wall/fence semantics: the border between the two Germanies was a fence also, only the parts through the urban parts of Berlin were a real wall.

14xxxx -series Seasprites… those are OOOOLD! All of those were built originally as UH-2A, then converted to either HH-2C or HH-2D, then to SH-2F (with some ex-HH-2D’s becoming SH-2D’s in between as well).

A nice bridge between this thread and the one on the Czech Gripen: if Kennedy wouldn’t have been killed, the US Army would have used this helicopter too! The USAr had gotten congressional approval an order for 220 H-2 Tomahawk gunships, which were SeaSprites with twin MG turrets in the nose, outrigger pylons and door-mounted MGs. On November 27th 1963, so just five days after Kennedy’s assasination, president Johnson veto’ed this order in favour of more UH-1C Hueys, to be fitted out as Hogs (aka gunships).

The coincidence is of course that Bell Helicopters is a Texan company, which happens to be Lyndon B. Johnson’s homestate. Kaman’s factory is in Connecticut (next to Kennedy’s homestate of Massachusets, if you want to get your conspiracy theories out again 😉 ).

As for Kaman being a strange little helo manufacturer: besides helicopters and other aviation bits, Kaman also makes guitars :confused:

I just can’t understand why the Berlin Wall was a bad idea, and the Palestinian Wall should be a good one.

Islands hardly need a ‘multi role’ capability. Anti-shipping and air-defence is enough, unless you’re planning for some expeditionism.

Dunno, is there a tour planned now? I’ll definately be at Werchter, but it somehow seems all those UK-gigs were the real classics… so i might consider crossing the pond too.