ArthurCivvie spotting question…
Since there is quite a bunch of civvie planespotters around here, perhaps one of you can answer me this question which has been bugging me for quite a while.
As a purely military planespotter myself, i can´t help but having to spend some time by the fence of civil airports every now and then. But often enough, it´s exactly these bases where one is prone to be arrested for planespotting, most likely of course because there are more people around willing to give you in, and because there is more security. Often enough a warning is what you get (had this at Otopeni when reading the H-5 which was to go to the RIAT and crashed three days later), but sometimes it takes longer (had to spend a night at Wolgograd-Gumrak) or way longer (a few Dutch spotters were busted in the late 1980s at Zagreb).
I would like to know if and if so what kind of similar stories go around in the civvie-planespotting world. And how it´s regarded by your rival-planespotters and such.
Hope anyone can answer me this.
ArthurRE: No it isn’t.
Why we should join the military?
At least the Soviet children & soldiers-propaganda looked good, and not so sickingly perverted like this. Possible interpretations of Ja’s twisted pic:
[li]To bore your kids to death on a family day?
[li]To take children as loot for the perverted deck swabbers?
[li]Because the only time your daughter isn’t crying when you’re near, is when she’s asleep so you’d better take a job where you’re away for six months of the year?
[li]Because if you’re out of ammo, you can always throw dead children at them?
[li]Because if you’re a six-year old girl you’ve got all it takes to join the Aussie navy?
Seriously Ja, if that was what your career was all about i think you would have enjoyed yourself a lot more in kindergarten.
ArthurRE: No it isn’t.
Why we should join the military?
At least the Soviet children & soldiers-propaganda looked good, and not so sickingly perverted like this. Possible interpretations of Ja’s twisted pic:
[li]To bore your kids to death on a family day?
[li]To take children as loot for the perverted deck swabbers?
[li]Because the only time your daughter isn’t crying when you’re near, is when she’s asleep so you’d better take a job where you’re away for six months of the year?
[li]Because if you’re out of ammo, you can always throw dead children at them?
[li]Because if you’re a six-year old girl you’ve got all it takes to join the Aussie navy?
Seriously Ja, if that was what your career was all about i think you would have enjoyed yourself a lot more in kindergarten.
ArthurRE: Best single of all time
Jona Lewie – Stop the Cavalry
Toni Basil – Hey Mickey
Okay, not the best, but hopefully one of these is stuck in your mind so you keep humming it all day 😀
ArthurRE: Best single of all time
Jona Lewie – Stop the Cavalry
Toni Basil – Hey Mickey
Okay, not the best, but hopefully one of these is stuck in your mind so you keep humming it all day 😀
ArthurRE: Some thoughts
BTW, my first decent reply in two months. Don’t spoil it. }>
Just sorting out the mistakes…
The first one in the 16th century, after Christoforo Colombo
discovered the New World in 1492. Portuguese men like Vasco
Da Gamas have travelled all the way (around Cape of Good
Hope) to India, where they have build some settlements like
Goa.
Goa was hardly a settlement, it was a replenishment and (secondary) trade post. Just like any other tradepost founded until around 1550 by the Portugese (Cabina) or Dutch (Cape Town) these had initially very little to do with actual colonisation (meaning economical extortion and molding the local population into a shape liked by the Benign Whites…), although they were later expanded as such. This happened to African posts only in the 19th century, BTW.
It was different in South America, where both the Spanish and Portugese immediately started running to grab as much gold as possible, so you got a kind of turbo-colonisation here since two powers of that time were in competition to grab as much as possible.
After a treaty set up by the pope in 1512 (treaty of
Tordesillas), the world was divided into a Portuguese and a
Spanish half. Still, Portugal lacked both the finances and
the people to ‘colonise’ Asia.
Because Portugal couldn’t split it’s resources. They knew gold was to be found in South America, so most Portugese colonialists went to Brasil.
The Portuguese were more like traders, who even got support from the Chinese, as they were the ones who made it possible to exchange goods between China and Persia for example (none of the Asian countries were interested in European goods though).
The Portugese were traders in mainland-China, Africa and India. In Brasil, Indonesia, Formosa and Sri Lanka they almost immediately began ‘genuine’ extortion-colonialism.
So, claiming that the Portuguese were rapists, murderers can be applied for some cases, but certainly not for most of them.
Yes, it can be applied for most of their overseas posessions, but not for all of them.
Even the Spanish, who are claimed for killing 2/3 of the Indians are not that guilty. It was due the flue and the plague the
Spanish brought with them so many Indians have died.
While diseases themselves were very destructive amongst the local population, it didn’t help that the people were by that time already forced to do slave labour Birnenau-style in order to relieve Spain’s rold-thirst. The diseases weren’t flu or the plague, it was cholera and tyfus.
A few ‘Conquistadores’ like Cortez and Nunez have did some bad
things, but the majority of the 300 000 Spanish who moved
there during the 16th century were peacefull.
Cortez and Nunez did ‘some bad things’? What about massacring the entire population of Tenochtitlan and totally destroying the city? The same happened to almost every populated city the Spaniards found. Ethnic cleansing by the book, Benjamin. Nothing less. Kill percentages in some areas in the first year after colonisation was above 80%, with often only the rural population surviving. Diseases struck badly, but it’s no excuse for Spanish misbehaviour.
Also, we should not forget the Arabs have also colonised
Europe before 1500. Half of the Iberian peninsula was
conquered by the Islam.
The Battle of Poitiers, Geforce? A bit further North than the Iberian peninsula. Anyway, by 1200 there was only the Grenada Kalifate left which is comparable to the current area of Andalucia.
It was only in 1492 the Spanish were
able to reconquer Granada and reunite it. The so called
reconquista. Religion was far more important than today, as
it was the only way to get people united.
That’s why Torquemada started the Spanish inquisition, and immediately began a massive campaign to clense Jews and Muslems out of Spain. Most were killed. Your history books are quite euphemistical!
In the 17th century, after the Spanish legacy was broken
(and Portugal was a part of Spain between 1580 and 1640),
England and the United Provinces took over the role of
traders. The UP (Holland) created a company in 1601 which
still exists up to today, the VOC (Verenigde Oost-Indische
Companie/United East-Indian Company).
This because of the decay of Spain during the 80-year and 30-year (the latter being also the last part of the former… very obvious) wars. The VOC was disestablished in the Napoleonic era by the way. It wouldn’t have much use nowadays…
The second wave of colonialism in the 19th century was a lot
more bloody than the first one. Especially in the African
territories.
Yes, this is a well-known historical theory but it goes astray when you compare South America to Africa. The only difference is the theory behind it: SA was conquered for religion and gold, Africa was conquered for national pride and various commodities. In practice it differed little but don’t tell that to West-centered historians (can make an interesting discussion by the way).
I think a fine example of this is the Belgian
presence in the Congo. Untill 1960, Belgians did not have to
pay taxes because everything we needed we got from the
Congo, with some help from our black slaves. Leopold II, our
king, made Brussels into one of the finest cities in
Europe, at the cost of hundreds of thousands lifes.
…some… slavery? Have you read Adam Hochschild? The Belgian colonisation of the Congo was definately the most brutal one in whole Africa, even worse than Germany’s genocide in Namibia. This was easy of course, since the Congo was not an actual Belgian colony but private grounds of the Belgian royal family. This did away with certain rights individuals have under Belgian law, even in the 19th century. Anyway, to come back to the starting point of this discussion: do you think Belgian colonial rule over Congo was the starting ground for the still ongoing violence and opression in Congo and Rwanda?
Eventhough it happened 300 years later, this colonialism was
far less civilised. Therefor people like to compare both and
don’t see the distinction.
The Dutch were slaughtering indigenous Indonesian people by 1600, filling village waterpits with chopped-off heads to make an impression. The result was a complete extortion-colony on the island of Java by 1650. Again, this doesn’t fit that ‘two-waves, two-kinds’ of colonialism theory. Although it has to be said that colonial rule in Indonesia definately was the reason behind the post-1948 violence there. Since the colony was Java-centered, Indonesia now considers itself to be some sort of greater-Java with no regard to the non-Javan peoples whatsoever.
I even think Straw said this to piss of the French and the
Spanish, so that they would also have to apologise.
Straw did not apologise (which would be worthless, you can’t apologise for something your ancestors did – and neither can you take personal pride in something like that), he accepted responsibility which is IMHO completely fair. I don’t believe in apologies or reparations on both moral and opportunistic grounds, but i do think we should assume the responsibility.
The relations between the big 5 in Europe are a bit cool these
gays (EU-stuff, Gibraltar) and each of them will use every
opportunity to piss off the others. What a nice world we
live in :7.
Ah, this explains why you post those West-centered historical theories here. You’re a Euro-centered historian yourself!
ArthurRE: Some thoughts
BTW, my first decent reply in two months. Don’t spoil it. }>
Just sorting out the mistakes…
The first one in the 16th century, after Christoforo Colombo
discovered the New World in 1492. Portuguese men like Vasco
Da Gamas have travelled all the way (around Cape of Good
Hope) to India, where they have build some settlements like
Goa.
Goa was hardly a settlement, it was a replenishment and (secondary) trade post. Just like any other tradepost founded until around 1550 by the Portugese (Cabina) or Dutch (Cape Town) these had initially very little to do with actual colonisation (meaning economical extortion and molding the local population into a shape liked by the Benign Whites…), although they were later expanded as such. This happened to African posts only in the 19th century, BTW.
It was different in South America, where both the Spanish and Portugese immediately started running to grab as much gold as possible, so you got a kind of turbo-colonisation here since two powers of that time were in competition to grab as much as possible.
After a treaty set up by the pope in 1512 (treaty of
Tordesillas), the world was divided into a Portuguese and a
Spanish half. Still, Portugal lacked both the finances and
the people to ‘colonise’ Asia.
Because Portugal couldn’t split it’s resources. They knew gold was to be found in South America, so most Portugese colonialists went to Brasil.
The Portuguese were more like traders, who even got support from the Chinese, as they were the ones who made it possible to exchange goods between China and Persia for example (none of the Asian countries were interested in European goods though).
The Portugese were traders in mainland-China, Africa and India. In Brasil, Indonesia, Formosa and Sri Lanka they almost immediately began ‘genuine’ extortion-colonialism.
So, claiming that the Portuguese were rapists, murderers can be applied for some cases, but certainly not for most of them.
Yes, it can be applied for most of their overseas posessions, but not for all of them.
Even the Spanish, who are claimed for killing 2/3 of the Indians are not that guilty. It was due the flue and the plague the
Spanish brought with them so many Indians have died.
While diseases themselves were very destructive amongst the local population, it didn’t help that the people were by that time already forced to do slave labour Birnenau-style in order to relieve Spain’s rold-thirst. The diseases weren’t flu or the plague, it was cholera and tyfus.
A few ‘Conquistadores’ like Cortez and Nunez have did some bad
things, but the majority of the 300 000 Spanish who moved
there during the 16th century were peacefull.
Cortez and Nunez did ‘some bad things’? What about massacring the entire population of Tenochtitlan and totally destroying the city? The same happened to almost every populated city the Spaniards found. Ethnic cleansing by the book, Benjamin. Nothing less. Kill percentages in some areas in the first year after colonisation was above 80%, with often only the rural population surviving. Diseases struck badly, but it’s no excuse for Spanish misbehaviour.
Also, we should not forget the Arabs have also colonised
Europe before 1500. Half of the Iberian peninsula was
conquered by the Islam.
The Battle of Poitiers, Geforce? A bit further North than the Iberian peninsula. Anyway, by 1200 there was only the Grenada Kalifate left which is comparable to the current area of Andalucia.
It was only in 1492 the Spanish were
able to reconquer Granada and reunite it. The so called
reconquista. Religion was far more important than today, as
it was the only way to get people united.
That’s why Torquemada started the Spanish inquisition, and immediately began a massive campaign to clense Jews and Muslems out of Spain. Most were killed. Your history books are quite euphemistical!
In the 17th century, after the Spanish legacy was broken
(and Portugal was a part of Spain between 1580 and 1640),
England and the United Provinces took over the role of
traders. The UP (Holland) created a company in 1601 which
still exists up to today, the VOC (Verenigde Oost-Indische
Companie/United East-Indian Company).
This because of the decay of Spain during the 80-year and 30-year (the latter being also the last part of the former… very obvious) wars. The VOC was disestablished in the Napoleonic era by the way. It wouldn’t have much use nowadays…
The second wave of colonialism in the 19th century was a lot
more bloody than the first one. Especially in the African
territories.
Yes, this is a well-known historical theory but it goes astray when you compare South America to Africa. The only difference is the theory behind it: SA was conquered for religion and gold, Africa was conquered for national pride and various commodities. In practice it differed little but don’t tell that to West-centered historians (can make an interesting discussion by the way).
I think a fine example of this is the Belgian
presence in the Congo. Untill 1960, Belgians did not have to
pay taxes because everything we needed we got from the
Congo, with some help from our black slaves. Leopold II, our
king, made Brussels into one of the finest cities in
Europe, at the cost of hundreds of thousands lifes.
…some… slavery? Have you read Adam Hochschild? The Belgian colonisation of the Congo was definately the most brutal one in whole Africa, even worse than Germany’s genocide in Namibia. This was easy of course, since the Congo was not an actual Belgian colony but private grounds of the Belgian royal family. This did away with certain rights individuals have under Belgian law, even in the 19th century. Anyway, to come back to the starting point of this discussion: do you think Belgian colonial rule over Congo was the starting ground for the still ongoing violence and opression in Congo and Rwanda?
Eventhough it happened 300 years later, this colonialism was
far less civilised. Therefor people like to compare both and
don’t see the distinction.
The Dutch were slaughtering indigenous Indonesian people by 1600, filling village waterpits with chopped-off heads to make an impression. The result was a complete extortion-colony on the island of Java by 1650. Again, this doesn’t fit that ‘two-waves, two-kinds’ of colonialism theory. Although it has to be said that colonial rule in Indonesia definately was the reason behind the post-1948 violence there. Since the colony was Java-centered, Indonesia now considers itself to be some sort of greater-Java with no regard to the non-Javan peoples whatsoever.
I even think Straw said this to piss of the French and the
Spanish, so that they would also have to apologise.
Straw did not apologise (which would be worthless, you can’t apologise for something your ancestors did – and neither can you take personal pride in something like that), he accepted responsibility which is IMHO completely fair. I don’t believe in apologies or reparations on both moral and opportunistic grounds, but i do think we should assume the responsibility.
The relations between the big 5 in Europe are a bit cool these
gays (EU-stuff, Gibraltar) and each of them will use every
opportunity to piss off the others. What a nice world we
live in :7.
Ah, this explains why you post those West-centered historical theories here. You’re a Euro-centered historian yourself!
ArthurRE: For those of you condemning the assasination
A few short ones to keep the spirits up… by the way, i don’t dissaprove the Yemen assasination. I was actually amazed by the clean and low-key manner in which the US pulled that trick. And i honestly believe that those killed are better off dead than waiting their fate at Gitmo – be that guilty or innocent.
The Geneva convention does not apply to terrorists. They
get no rights because there are none they should be
afforded. They aren’t POWs because htere was no official
declaration of war against another nation-state.
Hence the Hanoi Hilton and the rest of brutal treatment of American POWs in South East Asia… always remember that every time a general excuse is made to excuse for something, it can work both ways. Neither has the US declared war on Iraq, not in 1991 and not now during the NFZ-engagements. So i suggest not having high hopes for possible US POWs as they won’t be POWs…
On another note, Garry, if the US is wrong for using the
military to attack terrorists who have repeatedly threatened
and carried out attacks agaisnt the United States and its
citizens, at home and abroad, what is your opinion of the
SAS attacking IRA targets?
Did the SAS ever blow up cars in Boston, MA?
ArthurRE: For those of you condemning the assasination
A few short ones to keep the spirits up… by the way, i don’t dissaprove the Yemen assasination. I was actually amazed by the clean and low-key manner in which the US pulled that trick. And i honestly believe that those killed are better off dead than waiting their fate at Gitmo – be that guilty or innocent.
The Geneva convention does not apply to terrorists. They
get no rights because there are none they should be
afforded. They aren’t POWs because htere was no official
declaration of war against another nation-state.
Hence the Hanoi Hilton and the rest of brutal treatment of American POWs in South East Asia… always remember that every time a general excuse is made to excuse for something, it can work both ways. Neither has the US declared war on Iraq, not in 1991 and not now during the NFZ-engagements. So i suggest not having high hopes for possible US POWs as they won’t be POWs…
On another note, Garry, if the US is wrong for using the
military to attack terrorists who have repeatedly threatened
and carried out attacks agaisnt the United States and its
citizens, at home and abroad, what is your opinion of the
SAS attacking IRA targets?
Did the SAS ever blow up cars in Boston, MA?
ArthurRE: November 10, 1938
All I’m saying is, go and find your friendly neighbourhood
Kurdish immigrant and ask him. He may have a different and
more in depth ‘opinion’ than yours Arthur. There is a
reason Turkey has that reputation.
I have spoken with Kurdish refugees, and in no way do i want to belittle what the Turks are doing there. It is highly unsound, brutal and violent. However, if you think this is evidence that all Turkish policemen or soldiers are brutal and violent and behave disgustingly all the time, i don´t agree with you.
That’s odd. I always felt like cattle stewing in my own
filth in the tourist areas. I swear, those Scandanavians
aren’t as clean as they seem.
Tell me about it… same goes with most tourists by the way.
From a man who has spent many months in the villages of
Greece, I can’t say I’ve seen what you’re talking about.
I’ve seen the odd dead animal, but they were road kill (yes,
road kill-deer anyone?).
Perhaps the difference is that i made a lot of kilometres in Greece moving from airfield to airfield. Most of the carcasses are definately roadkill, but if a dead sheep looks like a prop from a horror movie i think it should have been removed some time ago. I saw it a lot.
Well, I don’t think the cops are there to be ‘nice’ if
that’s what your talking about.
They don´t have to be nice, they just have to be correct. To protect and to serve.
And no Arthur, I’m afraid Turkey is still a country where people are jailed for political reasons.
Sorry Icarus, but i can´t restrain myself here: you yourself claimed that Greece is a country where people are acquitted for political reasons 😀
Sometimes, kids will be kids. The fact that by far the most
accidents happen in the mountain roads IMHO shows something.
Then why is the accident rate in other mountainous, motorised countries like Switzerland and Norway so much lower? Driving discipline is the answer that comes to my mind.
Also, when a motorbike slams into an Alpha Romeo head on on
a winding hill road, trust me, I’ve seen the aftermath.
Oh yes, i know how such accidents look. The last time i threw up for seeing something like that was in Russia, also a frontal accident where at least one of the vehicles was driving in the wrong lane with excessive speed…
Though Greek drivers have the well deserved reputation of
being very aggresive.
…well, you can´t deny this agression makes a lot of victims.
>>>>Very good. Hope it helps, but in spring 2000 it still took longer to drive a car from Marathon (yes, Kotroni ) to Athens than a certain runner did a few millenia ago.
Funny. Seriosuly though, things are much better and getting
even better.
I am serious, it took more than three hours to drive from Kotroni to just outside Pireas (after doing the airbases North of Athens, we were then to move on to the Peloponessos). I don´t know where the historical marathon ended exactly, but i presume it was somewhere near the Parthenon. I don´t think we could have driven there in less time. But i´m glad things are moving in the right direction.
Soon you will be able to go from Araxos and Andravidia to
Nea Anhialos without going near Athens Arthur.
I don´t deny there is progress in Greece logistics, and i´m seriously happy about it. When i was there, the highway was half finished between Korinte and Patras, and there was not much to see of the bridge itself except for the huge signs showing wat was going to be built. And which supranational organisation pays for it, of course. Although the armada of mini-ferries crossing at that point is an experience which i can recommend to many people. Although it was slowly and cumbersome, i had great fun on those ferries (the last Friday of the trip, we left the Peloponessos and drove relaxed to Agrinion for the F-104 storage. Fridays are relaxed planespotting days in Greece since the EPA doesn´t fly on Fridays, except for QRA missions).
Please don´t think i´m anti-Greek because i am not. Just because i liked other countries better doesn´t mean anything – for me, Greece is more or less on the same level as far as countries can be rated fr their fun-level as France.
ArthurRE: November 10, 1938
All I’m saying is, go and find your friendly neighbourhood
Kurdish immigrant and ask him. He may have a different and
more in depth ‘opinion’ than yours Arthur. There is a
reason Turkey has that reputation.
I have spoken with Kurdish refugees, and in no way do i want to belittle what the Turks are doing there. It is highly unsound, brutal and violent. However, if you think this is evidence that all Turkish policemen or soldiers are brutal and violent and behave disgustingly all the time, i don´t agree with you.
That’s odd. I always felt like cattle stewing in my own
filth in the tourist areas. I swear, those Scandanavians
aren’t as clean as they seem.
Tell me about it… same goes with most tourists by the way.
From a man who has spent many months in the villages of
Greece, I can’t say I’ve seen what you’re talking about.
I’ve seen the odd dead animal, but they were road kill (yes,
road kill-deer anyone?).
Perhaps the difference is that i made a lot of kilometres in Greece moving from airfield to airfield. Most of the carcasses are definately roadkill, but if a dead sheep looks like a prop from a horror movie i think it should have been removed some time ago. I saw it a lot.
Well, I don’t think the cops are there to be ‘nice’ if
that’s what your talking about.
They don´t have to be nice, they just have to be correct. To protect and to serve.
And no Arthur, I’m afraid Turkey is still a country where people are jailed for political reasons.
Sorry Icarus, but i can´t restrain myself here: you yourself claimed that Greece is a country where people are acquitted for political reasons 😀
Sometimes, kids will be kids. The fact that by far the most
accidents happen in the mountain roads IMHO shows something.
Then why is the accident rate in other mountainous, motorised countries like Switzerland and Norway so much lower? Driving discipline is the answer that comes to my mind.
Also, when a motorbike slams into an Alpha Romeo head on on
a winding hill road, trust me, I’ve seen the aftermath.
Oh yes, i know how such accidents look. The last time i threw up for seeing something like that was in Russia, also a frontal accident where at least one of the vehicles was driving in the wrong lane with excessive speed…
Though Greek drivers have the well deserved reputation of
being very aggresive.
…well, you can´t deny this agression makes a lot of victims.
>>>>Very good. Hope it helps, but in spring 2000 it still took longer to drive a car from Marathon (yes, Kotroni ) to Athens than a certain runner did a few millenia ago.
Funny. Seriosuly though, things are much better and getting
even better.
I am serious, it took more than three hours to drive from Kotroni to just outside Pireas (after doing the airbases North of Athens, we were then to move on to the Peloponessos). I don´t know where the historical marathon ended exactly, but i presume it was somewhere near the Parthenon. I don´t think we could have driven there in less time. But i´m glad things are moving in the right direction.
Soon you will be able to go from Araxos and Andravidia to
Nea Anhialos without going near Athens Arthur.
I don´t deny there is progress in Greece logistics, and i´m seriously happy about it. When i was there, the highway was half finished between Korinte and Patras, and there was not much to see of the bridge itself except for the huge signs showing wat was going to be built. And which supranational organisation pays for it, of course. Although the armada of mini-ferries crossing at that point is an experience which i can recommend to many people. Although it was slowly and cumbersome, i had great fun on those ferries (the last Friday of the trip, we left the Peloponessos and drove relaxed to Agrinion for the F-104 storage. Fridays are relaxed planespotting days in Greece since the EPA doesn´t fly on Fridays, except for QRA missions).
Please don´t think i´m anti-Greek because i am not. Just because i liked other countries better doesn´t mean anything – for me, Greece is more or less on the same level as far as countries can be rated fr their fun-level as France.
ArthurRE: And the worst songs this year?
Benjamin, you listen too much to Studio Brussels… that song is played at least three times an hour on that station! SB going further down the drain… they nowadays even play R´n´B where they used to surprise you with fun stuff like Eisbär or something else equally cool.
ArthurRE: And the worst songs this year?
Benjamin, you listen too much to Studio Brussels… that song is played at least three times an hour on that station! SB going further down the drain… they nowadays even play R´n´B where they used to surprise you with fun stuff like Eisbär or something else equally cool.
ArthurRE: November 10, 1938
Uhhh… Icarus, if i give personal comments about my personal observations it isn´t really necessary to counter those with links or suggestions. You´ll need a lot more to make me change my perception of the things i´ve seen and experienced. There is a life outside of URL´s, you know.
Well some of that may be due to the tourists (14 million
plus last year). In Crete, you should see how many guys
they have cleaning up the beaches after a hot summers day.
And those aren’t Greeks there.
The tourist areas in Greece are clean, it´s the rest of the country which i condidered a total dump. I couldn´t believe the first two rotting sheep carcasses rotting beside the public road (this was near Tatoi-Dekelia, on my first day of planespotting and within the Athens city boundaries), but after a day or two i didn´t notice anymore until i came across the awfully smelling carcass of a cow right between the bus terminal and the village of Tanagra. And it seems that every village, town, city, settlement or hamlet in Greece just picks the nearest valley or gorge, use it as garbage disposal, and takes the next one without bothering to clean it up. In all honesty: rural, non-touristic Greece is filthy.
We may not be perfect, but the Greek police are sure as hell
not on the level on the above (and more). Though there are
some issues with police liking to pull out their guns in
Greece alittle too quickly, but today new resolutions making
it harder for cops to take out and use their weapons has
been tabled.
True, last year there were less suspects clubbed to death in Greek police stations. And i know human rights are a very serious issue in Turkey, while Greece isn´t any worse than France (to name one). But that´s when it comes to criminals – i was talking about the impression i had from being a traveller with just normal, superficial contacts with the police.
>>>and IMHO made a much more open, friendly impression than Greece. Especially outside the tourist areas.<<<
In your opinion.
No, in my humble opinion. That´s what the IMHO stands for 😉
>>>>And you won´t believe it, but apart from Istanbul, Turkish drivers are far more capable of holding a steering wheel than your average Greek driver.<<<
Now this I really resent. True accidents in Greece are TOO
TOO HIGH, but have you seen those windy village roads? It’s
not the drivers as so much as it is the mountain roads. Not
to mention that a large chunk of accidents occur from motor
bikes.
I don´t care if motorbikes ride off a cliff, it´s usually just the rider of those things who gets injured. If he had driven more carefully or had left that extra bottle of retsina nothing would have happened. But i´m talking about the dozens of Ford Granada´s and Taunuses and Opel Asconas ignoring all regulair precautions on windy village roads, smashing other cars, people and cattle (the latter is of course left on the spot it died). And while Turkey has roads which are just as winding… etcetera.
>>>>Traffic in Greece is definately hell, unless you want to surpass your own limits of antisocial behaviour of course.<<<
ANd that’s why we have the following projects:
http://www.minenv.gr/4/45/4504/e450401.html
http://www.egnatia.gr/text/en/index.html
http://www.aodos.gr/
http://www.metropla.net/eu/ath/athens.htm
http://www.tram.gr/
Very good. Hope it helps, but in spring 2000 it still took longer to drive a car from Marathon (yes, Kotroni 😉 ) to Athens than a certain runner did a few millenia ago.
>>>>Nothing personal, just some observations.<<<
Of course not Arthur. 😉 Happy spotting….
Thanks Icarus, and happy maple leafing to you! 😀
ArthurRE: November 10, 1938
Uhhh… Icarus, if i give personal comments about my personal observations it isn´t really necessary to counter those with links or suggestions. You´ll need a lot more to make me change my perception of the things i´ve seen and experienced. There is a life outside of URL´s, you know.
Well some of that may be due to the tourists (14 million
plus last year). In Crete, you should see how many guys
they have cleaning up the beaches after a hot summers day.
And those aren’t Greeks there.
The tourist areas in Greece are clean, it´s the rest of the country which i condidered a total dump. I couldn´t believe the first two rotting sheep carcasses rotting beside the public road (this was near Tatoi-Dekelia, on my first day of planespotting and within the Athens city boundaries), but after a day or two i didn´t notice anymore until i came across the awfully smelling carcass of a cow right between the bus terminal and the village of Tanagra. And it seems that every village, town, city, settlement or hamlet in Greece just picks the nearest valley or gorge, use it as garbage disposal, and takes the next one without bothering to clean it up. In all honesty: rural, non-touristic Greece is filthy.
We may not be perfect, but the Greek police are sure as hell
not on the level on the above (and more). Though there are
some issues with police liking to pull out their guns in
Greece alittle too quickly, but today new resolutions making
it harder for cops to take out and use their weapons has
been tabled.
True, last year there were less suspects clubbed to death in Greek police stations. And i know human rights are a very serious issue in Turkey, while Greece isn´t any worse than France (to name one). But that´s when it comes to criminals – i was talking about the impression i had from being a traveller with just normal, superficial contacts with the police.
>>>and IMHO made a much more open, friendly impression than Greece. Especially outside the tourist areas.<<<
In your opinion.
No, in my humble opinion. That´s what the IMHO stands for 😉
>>>>And you won´t believe it, but apart from Istanbul, Turkish drivers are far more capable of holding a steering wheel than your average Greek driver.<<<
Now this I really resent. True accidents in Greece are TOO
TOO HIGH, but have you seen those windy village roads? It’s
not the drivers as so much as it is the mountain roads. Not
to mention that a large chunk of accidents occur from motor
bikes.
I don´t care if motorbikes ride off a cliff, it´s usually just the rider of those things who gets injured. If he had driven more carefully or had left that extra bottle of retsina nothing would have happened. But i´m talking about the dozens of Ford Granada´s and Taunuses and Opel Asconas ignoring all regulair precautions on windy village roads, smashing other cars, people and cattle (the latter is of course left on the spot it died). And while Turkey has roads which are just as winding… etcetera.
>>>>Traffic in Greece is definately hell, unless you want to surpass your own limits of antisocial behaviour of course.<<<
ANd that’s why we have the following projects:
http://www.minenv.gr/4/45/4504/e450401.html
http://www.egnatia.gr/text/en/index.html
http://www.aodos.gr/
http://www.metropla.net/eu/ath/athens.htm
http://www.tram.gr/
Very good. Hope it helps, but in spring 2000 it still took longer to drive a car from Marathon (yes, Kotroni 😉 ) to Athens than a certain runner did a few millenia ago.
>>>>Nothing personal, just some observations.<<<
Of course not Arthur. 😉 Happy spotting….
Thanks Icarus, and happy maple leafing to you! 😀
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