RE: Just …

>I fully understand that many people have a
>right to hate my nation.

If you can see that, than perhaps you can also see why people actually exploit that right? Perhaps a good step in the direction of understanding, rather than communication through explosives.

Anyway…
On 9/11 i was at work, doing some low-priority job and still sobbing for becoming single again two weeks earlier. At a certain stage, phones began ringing here in the editorial office of the newspaper where i work, and suddenly things started happening fast. By then only one aircraft had flown into one of the towers, and that´s all what was known. Rumours were buzzing, somebody called to the other side of the room “What´s actually going on with them skyscrapers in New York? Is a giant ape standing on one of them?”

In the mean time, i began opening up all possible newswires and other sources of info, and started typing like hell (i´m an internet editor). By the time i had a small article on the first plane -i still considered it a very weird accident- on-line, the second one flew in. Ah, that doesn´t look like an accident. That seems more like a deliberate action. From then, it all got completely frantic. Thankfully two colleagues arrived very, very soon but still it was one continuous wave of incoming rumours (Flight 93 shot down! More aircraft missing!),news, scavenging for pictures…

Only when i got home (actually i was kicked out by the chief editor, he wanted people to be awake the next few days as well) i got the chance to be shocked. Only then did i realise that thousands of people died, that the US finally was confronted by the fact that many people across the world don´t like the US bombing around unpunished, and the sheer magnitude of the attacks. Later still i came to realise the heroism involved – both from the people of the NYPD and NYFD but equally so on the terrorist´s side: i consider hijacking an aircraft and then fly it into a building on a similar level of heroism as the VT-8 raid during the Battle of Midway, for example. Disregarding the goals achieved, of course.

I have to admit that the responses of the US government in the aftermath of the attacks kind of relieved me. Probably because i had little respect for most of the Bush administration, i was afraid that the US would retaliate in some kind of berserk and totally unfounded manner (more or less in the similar rage as Phantom II feels) and would quickly reform itself into a fascistoid security-paranoid and arabophobic state. Although i don´t support the US actions, i have to admit that i expected it to be far worse. (And now i have this off my chest, i will continue my rantings on US foreign policy as ever before of course 😀 )

RE: I say forget about Iraq….it’s pointless

Firstly, i have to plead guilty for calling PII a racist and a redneck. This was amongst others in a reply of PII saying that “despite he looks like a European, but has nothing in common with Europeans.” Don’t know if Kev ever did (Geforce did too), but anyway i could be the one reffered to using such extremely harsh words.

Phantom, if you cared to take a look at the source i gave you, it is clear that Bush did not get the majority of votes, only (by the famous small Florida margin) the most electoral votes. Deny that if you want, but wishful thinking does not change the facts. According to the US electoral system, Bush won. He only had less votes than Gore.

The figures from CNN (at http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/):
Bush: 50,456,169
Gore: 50,996,116

Please give me some sources if you claim that Bush won the majority of the votes, since i can’t seem to find them

>Geforce, I do read your posts. As choking to me as they are
>I read them. You know what I pick up out of it all? Nothing,
>and that’s because you don’t seem to get it.

Then why respond?

>You are so
>wrapped up in trying to prove that the EU is just as
>important as the US (and no, I’m not implying either way)
>when it comes to this issue or that issue that you feel
>putting down Bush is a good way to get some sort of
>satisfaction.

Unless you understand that human rights and national sovereignty apply to Burundi just as they apply to Belgium just as well as they apply to the United States (nothing more, nothing less) we will never be able to finish any discussion regarding US foreign policy. Putting down Bush is not a means to get some sort of satisfaction against the US (why should i?), putting down Bush is the result of an in the rest of the world’s perspective change in foreign policy to a highly questionable level with the intellectual level of a retard.

>The fact of the matter is, the American people
>(the majority anyway) approve of him and we respect him.

I hope that’s because of his domestic politics, as those are his actions that affect you. The rest of the world criticises Bush for his actions in foreign politics, as those are the actions that affect the rest of the world.

>When I said your comment as a European doesn’t matter I mean
>you as a non-U.S. citizen. You don’t vote for the man or
>have any say to who goes into office so why is it you keep
>on with your anti-Bush comments? Does it not get old to you
>after a while? Do you have a life?

If the rest of the world can’t vote for the US president, by what mandate is the US influence on the global military arena so big?

>Kev, actually although I approach it the wrong way, I do
>blow off Geforce’s comments as I know that his type is the
>type that lost the election. So it doesn’t really bother me
>much.

Apparently, it does. Onterwise Geforce’s posts wouldn’t choke you that much.

>I’m happy Bush is in office and I’ll be proud to serve
>under him when I get my commission in several years.

Please think about this question: will your mother be proud of you if you die for your country’s interest in some far away craphole in order to replace one anti-American government by another one?

>I love to watch his speeches on TV as they inspire so much pride in
>me as an American.

So the contents of his speeches don’t matter? I’m sorry, but if that’s how you judge your president i don’t think it would really matter who would be standing there as long as he’d been waving the Stars and Stripes and talks some militant rhetorics every now and then. For me, a good president would have to answer to different criteria but then again my opinion isn’t important.

>As far as the news media goes I don’t pay attention to them.

Then on what do you base your often very harsh opinions on the rest of the world? Gut feeling?

>Also, regarding me being a “racist”, I can tell you I’m not.
>Your believing me isn’t important in that we will likely
>never meet, but rest assured I’m not racist.

I hope you’re not, and i trust you in this. I do believe that in the ferocity of a discussion you sometimes cross the line in this respect.

>Regarding Saddam, I’ve actually changed my opinion on that
>somewhat. I really don’t think we should go in as much
>anymore.

Based on what? The news media? Comments of renowned Republican people who have knowledge in international affairs and are not affected by family-remorse? The ‘anti-American’ ranting you don’t consider important here?

>But, I can guarantee
>you that Saddam will either die or be overthrown. And I
>can’t say what or who will replace him.

The currently most likely candidate is Qusai, his son. Other candidates would be a Shi’i muslem from southern Iraq who would definately try to make close ties with Iran (America’s other good friend in the region), or perhaps a Kurd who’d immediately start exporting his revolution to Turkey. Or, even worse but extremely unlikely, a real democrat who would set a nice example for the region in which the dictatorships of Saudi Arabia and other countries in the region would fall? I doubt the democratic thoughts in Saudi Arabia are pro-US, in case you’d like to know.

>I dare say whoever
>it is would be an improvement over him (it’s hard to be much
>worse).

The US thought the same about the post-Communist government of Afghanistan. Look what country the US went to war in a decade later.

>…if he isn’t overthrown by some group that is dedicated to
>improving life in Iraq. The hard part is finding that group.

‘Improving life in Iraq’ isn’t much of an issue. The rebel factions in Iraq either want the power to themselves (as many rebel factions all around the world, just like Saddam before he came to power), or want to improve life for their specific part of the Iraqi population. Neither appear to be much of an improvement over Saddam, although the initial opression could well be less (also remember that Saddam uses US/British pressure on his country as a sickening excuse to opress his people even more).

RE: Natural gas…

Consider this a footnote, but China ratified Kyoto last week.

RE: National Music

Austria? Uh-oh…

Die erste allgemeine Verunsicherung’s song Banküberfall was pretty terrible (ich habe zeit wochen kein Schnitzel mehr im Bauch…), but all hell broke loose when they discovered housy beats. Some terrible stuff has come from that friendly-little-country-in-the-mountains… DJ Otzi was pretty bad, but what about Edelweiss and that terrible ‘Ready for Radetzky’-collection of Sissi-quotes, burps, scratches and the ever so corny Radetzky-march?

RE: Wanted to stay out of this … yeah right….

>Arthur,
>Apparently you aren’t as informed as I thought you
>were. After the election in 2000 they investigated to see if
>Bush’s win was legitimate, and guess what? It was. He
>actually had the required number of votes (i.e. more votes
>than Gore) so he won the election legitimately. So, you
>can’t throw that against him anymore. He did win fair and
>square.

Votes cast for Al Gore: 50.16 million
Votes cast for George Bush: 49.82 million
(figures from http://members.verizon.net/~vze3fs8i/air/whowon.html)

It was a close call, but Gore actually got more votes.
The reason that Bush won the elections, was because he got 272 electoral votes (because of the stepped system you have), and Gore only got 267 electoral votes which indeed make Bush win fair and square according to the American poll system. Yet i can’t comprehend this – it all comes down to the fact that a vote of an American citizen is worth less if he lives in (for example) Kansas then a vote casted in Rhode Island (i just named these states as an example, it could easily be the other way around). The way Bush eventually became president is as far as i can tell perfectly legal according to the US system, but he was not the one who got the most votes.

The democracy issue….

>Surely, one of the great parts of democracy.

Oh right: let’s bring in democracy! Let’s have a poll in Iraq if they want to be liberated by the US, or not. Let’s have a global poll if the world’s population wants the US in, or out of the Kyoto agreement. Let’s have a democratic poll in Saudi Arabia if the population really wants the US to protect them.

Puh-leaze! A country which has slightly less than 50% of it’s voters turning up at an election, a country in which the fellow who has the least votes becomes president, a country which uses it’s ability to bomb or antagonise any country which doesn’t sing in tune with them unasked… yet still, you dare to use the democracy-card? With the often enough displayed attitude of “You’re free to disagree, but i’m democratically ignore any opinion not in line with mine!”?

As for your comment on why i’m being critical on the US and no other countries (have you ever seen me posting on France? Or my own country?): this thread was started by PhantomII, who was oh-so-sure that the whole population of the US was behind Dubya’s mission to punish Iraq (go and ask Republicans like Schultz or Kissinger how they think about Qusai Bush’ plans, BTW). Let’s face it: the only true reason for Dumbya to attack Iraq is to save the face of the older guy in the Bush-dynasty who did an half-assed job against Iraq in 1991.

>I mite add
>that WWII was very complicated.

Scooter, let me ask you: is there anything anywhere that you don’t find ‘very complicated’, yet want to solve by stupidities like bombing this-and-that guy?

>Much more than Iraq and the Middle East could ever hope to be!

WW2 more complicated then the Middle East? Thanks for the best joke i’ve heard in years.

>Yet, as allied nations we came together and won over evil.

Oh, now it’s “we as allied nations” again? I thought it was only the US.

>I sincerely hope we have no
>more wars. Thought, do we really have any choice? We never
>learn from history to bad!

What have we learned from history? That apart from WW2 the US has a very, very, very poor record when it comes to foreign politics resulting in the local population ending up better than they were beforehand? If that’s the case: indeed, you haven’t learned anything from history. Complicated as it might be 😉

RE: On special request

Nah, just forget it, it’s too annoying (try copypasting the link without the ” on the end, that should do it).

Als ik kots, in de goot, onder ‘t kwijl, hallef dood, je veux l’amour

RE: On special request

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 22-08-02 AT 08:53 PM (GMT)]BRILLIANT! }>

I’m going to bang your head on the wall as soon as i get you…

Take this nice background as a premature revenge (i should have put it behind the Alexander the Great-statue-thread, but hey…)

Dammit, this forum (rightfully…) doesn’t allow me to start messing around with background music… oh well, i guess it’s better like this.