Rich last one (promise)

Quote: The new Browns Lane Site is not Browns Lane as was in 1963. Unless you’re building the cars in someone’s front room, as its now a housing estate.

Actually Track 7 and the service workshops (which is where these 6 examples are built) is part of the original Browns Lane site, I have been visiting here for years both before and after demolition of the rest of the factory.

Track 7 is still used to build all Jaguar Production Prototypes, before being sent down the main production lines

These facilities and the adjacent Veneer Manufacturing Centre complex are all that remain of the original factory footprint, but its the same buildings as in 1963..

Oh come on… its not the Competition Shop where the originals were built in any way, that part was bulldozed and however its spun it can’t be brought back. Trying to justify it by it being part of the Browns Lane site is like building a new Lancaster in the Fire Station at what’s left of Woodford and claiming it came out of Avro. Its not the same and you know it! As for being built on site, its not. Jaguar’s own material says built at Whitley, painted at Gaydon with final fettling and trim at the Browns Lane site. So it really is just putting the badge on the nose and claiming it was built there.

The more I look at this the more I’m starting to be underwhelmed. Wider tyres front and back to cope with bigger brakes instead of those taken from a Mk VIII at the front and Mk X at the rear. Interior trim… on a racing car. Alloy engine, but with the four speed gearbox instead of the ZF 5 speed. And these cars are supposed to be indistinguishable from original? How can they be continuation with these differences?

I had a pop across to the E-type forums yesterday evening and its just as devisive a topic over there…. especially as it seems two of the new body numbers escaped the factory in the early 1970’s as unbuilt cars.

Regards,

Rich

Simply to expand Richw_82’s aircraft content….

It is said that William Lyons of S.S.Cars sought permission from John Siddeley of Armstrong Siddeley to use the name “Jaguar” (as in Armstrong Siddeley radial aero engine) to rename his company and throw off the name S.S.

That’s an impressive list of aero production work Rich – did you research it yourself or is it published in one of the Jaguar books?

Hi Roger,

I believe the makers of the Jaguar aircraft then had to ask permission to use it afterwards too.

The list comes from a book on Jaguar by Philip Porter, I should have credited it but couldn’t find the source at time of posting!

Kind regards,

Rich

I’m going to continue and assume that this will be moved out of Historic…

– They are the unique identifiers for the cars in question (despite semantics on the description) and were taken out at the time (not just invented 50 years later)

They weren’t taken out with anyone. The numbers only correspond to Jaguar’s records, and were to meet a bare minimum for racing homologation. Same as they said they would make a certain number of C-type, D-type and didn’t. Just because the numbers aren’t used doesn’t mean there was an intent to build them.

– The numbers are in the build book ledger of the time, as was shown on the programme, so the company recognised that they were at least considering building 6 more and registered their unique build numbers in their ledger of record.

I missed that – so at least they’re eligible in some regard. Do they appear in the dispersement log book, complete with specification, trim and paint details? I doubt it.

– I think you will find that JLR will have wrapped up exclusivity clauses in their dealings to prevent exactly what you say.

(re: building your own.)

You’d be wrong.
http://www.rspanels.co.uk/parts.php?cat=2

-Plus the DVLA recognise these as homologated vehicles from the era, which do not comply with current SVA regs, hence why they are not ‘road legal’ in the UK.

They don’t comply with current regs, but they class as a built up car and you can get a period number plate for them. The date of first registration means you can’t get free road tax, but if you can afford to build one I don’t think thats an issue.

– so were these 6 lightweights also built at Browns Lane

The new Browns Lane Site is not Browns Lane as was in 1963. Unless you’re building the cars in someone’s front room, as its now a housing estate.

myself and Rich are on different sides of this argument and unlikely to be swayed from our views…….

😀 Fair point.

I will say I still class them as Jaguars – I just argue the continuation bit. My friend is building an XJ13 with an original quad cam engine, and I was fortunate enough to have a good chat with Peter Wilson who was part of the team that built the original; I also intend to one day have a go at building a D-type. But even if the factory sanctioned it, I wouldn’t be calling it anything other than a replica.

Regards,

Rich

Obligatory aircraft content –

Jaguar shadow factory activiuties during wartime –

Service Work
Whitley aircraft repaired and flown: 134
Whitley aircraft broken and salvaged: 339
Cheetah auxiliary drive units reconditioned and tested: 857
Whitley wings modified for heavier bombs: 80 sets
Whitley tailplanes modified: 18
Whitley fuel tanks repaired: 333
Wellington mainplanes: –
Stirling elevators: –

Whitley Parts
Cockpit roofs: 1399
Bomb doors: 100 pairs
Landing gear doors: 200 sets
Tail planes: 50
Spar panels: 150 sets
Bomb door fenders: 1100
Bomb beams: 570
Fuel tanks fireproofed: 1223
Cage formers: 1280
Former “B” : 1604
Formers “A” and “C” : 1150
Formers “D” “E” and “F” : 1150

Meteor III Parts
Centre section complete: 98

Stirling Parts
Trailing edge in way of aileron: 1181
Trailing edge in way of flap: 1039
Leading edge outer portion: 575
Leading edge between nacelles: 490
Trailing edge ribs: 140 sets
Dinghy stowage covers: 483

Mosquito Parts
Fuel tanks fireproof covered: 19562
Oil tanks fireproof covered: 500

Spitfire parts
Wing tips: 294 pairs
Oil tanks: 1586
30 gallon jettison tanks: 1150
170 gallon jettison tanks: 550

Lancaster Parts
Bomb doors: 503

Gun Control Parts
Four gun control sets: 6998
Relay boxes: 23954
Ammo box frames: 5749
Cartridge link chutes: 24309
Ammunition boxes: 18644
Oxygen bottle cradles: 750
Ammunition boxes (again?!!): 4461

Miscellaneous parts
Aircraft de-icing tanks: 5097
Oxford tanks fireproofed: 1220

If they had some numbers left over from that little lot, I’d bet there would be a rather long queue…

Regards,

Rich

Mark,

You should know better then…

They’re not VINs, they’re purely body/build numbers, VIN’s didn’t come into use until way later. So if the last car of the new batch was something like 850023 they can still make many many more, as other models don’t share the build number. Example? XXC, XKD, XKSS and so forth for other nice toys.. all with relatively small numbers. How long before somebody pops up and says that there’s more numbers there? The latest duty rumour is the cars that were lost in the factory fire have been found. Well, the numbers have at least.

So, despite all the hoohah, none of these cars should really be eligible for the company’s own Heritage Certificate. Why? Because the numbers don’t appear in the company’s order book for the period. Same as the guy that built the ‘last’ V12 E-type from factory suplied parts after production offfically ceased. Or the dead D-type’s written off at the factory for parts, that have somehow reappeared after no-one has seen them for 50 years. This laying claim to ‘6 VINS at the time’, do you not think this would have come to light with the written works of Andrew Whyte, Nigel Thorley, or perhaps someone like Peter Wilson who used to build the real lightweights?

So no JDHT certificate, and if they do then it will make all the ones issued so far worthless..

I realise that they’re outsourcing heavily this time around, but if we are to take this as a true continuation of the original; then you can’t do that, as it defeats the object of the exercise. Someone else has produced it and the company is naively trying to add a validity to it. Its falling flat though – they’re a nice piece of engineering but everyone knows where they came from, who made them, and what they really are. Order one from RS panels, get a C&G engine and get the JDC to agree its made from period parts and the DVLA will sign it off as an E-type for a fraction of the price.

Lets look again at how much ‘Jaguar’ is in these.

Assuming I bought one of these cars. Could I get specialist parts for it through a Jaguar dealer (can for the production E-type.)? No.
Can I get parts direct from Jaguar through the JDHT parts scheme (can for the production E-type) No.
Could I have done with an original car, bought from the factory at the time? Yes.
Can I walk into CMC, RS Panels, and get the bits? Yes.

As for Pressed Steel Fisher supplying bodies, that was largely for the saloon cars, and Jaguar later became part of the same company through BMC (later BL). Pressed Steel never made the E-type either, it was Abbey Panels, so its pointless. And neither built the lightweights, they were put built at Browns Lane -same as the C-types, D-types, XJ13 and all the true legends.

“why should the likes of Eagle etc be able to cream off the profit, it’s about time the original manufacturer had some of it as well.”

There’s your problem. If Jaguar wanted the money they should have protected their rights to the name and shape better – as do the German companies.

Keep up the good work, tell your bosses the F-type badly needs to go play on the Mulsanne. We need something British to cheer for. 😉

Regards,
Rich

They are factory assembled replicas. RS Panels build the body, Crossthwaite and Gardner build the engine, Jaguar assemble it from pieces, there’s nothing made in house – its not like the originals which were put together in Jaguar’s Competition Shop. I know that a lot of things are outsourced and the original production ‘E’ (not the lightweight) had panels come in from Abbey Panels; but the majority of parts were from Jaguars own factories.

To truly be late production, it should be the same as the Lister-Jaguar continuation cars where as much as possible was done in house. Jaguar’s attempt is a big marketing effort and a realisation that rebranding things has dropped a clanger, and that past glories are great for business until they win at Le Mans again.

Goodwood do actually allow replicas, but only ones of significant cars where no originals exist – recently cars such as the 1952 long nose C-type replica, or Chris Rea’s Ferrari.

Regards,

Rich

Okay, if this works it should be a rather bad scan of a very good (and large) drawing showing the side profile of a Shackleton, with the lifeboat suspension cradle fitted.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]237971[/ATTACH]

Griffon engine cradle, I believe. Thats the only reference I can find to a structure requiring cut away bomb bay doors.