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sealordlawrence

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February 6, 2009 at 1:15 pm in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044705

sealordlawrence
Participant

Hull form doesn’t determine class. Now can you show us SPECIFICALLY what these special “lines” are that you think make a cruiser a cruiser?

I have already given you a source stating that the last US cruiser was Long Beach and I will not detract this thread any further by embarking upon detailed discussion about hull design. If you wish to know more go and buy Naval Institute books.

February 6, 2009 at 7:53 am in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044716

sealordlawrence
Participant

An excellent piece that turned up on DoD Buzz this morning:

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/02/05/how-to-fix-shipbuilding-rep-taylor-to-gates/

February 6, 2009 at 7:29 am in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044718

sealordlawrence
Participant

The only thing special I can find about the Long Beach hull was that it is basically a WW2 style cruiser hull, meaning it has some armor, that’s it.

Hull form.

February 5, 2009 at 9:37 pm in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044797

sealordlawrence
Participant

I seriously doubt any book on naval construction is going to tell me that the way the world classifies it’s ships is based on the shape of it’s hull. By your definition the Kirov or Slava classes aren’t cruisers either.

Actually both classes display cruiser type hull lines, as do a number of Soviet ships classified as destroyers.

Now you have been given a source that states that the last US cruiser was the Long Beach.

February 5, 2009 at 9:33 pm in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044802

sealordlawrence
Participant

From “Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet, 13th ed.” by Norman Polmar.

Class: The Long Beach was the first U.S. cruiser to be constructed after WW2…

Design: SCB No. 169. The Long Beach was initially proposed as a large destroyer or “frigate” of some 7,800 tons (standard displacement).

There is no “hull form” for cruiser, it is whatever the role the ship fills in the fleet. The Burkes, Kongo’s and South Korea’s Death Stars should all be considered light cruisers because of their armaments, role and sensor fit.

Wrong. As explained previously.

February 5, 2009 at 8:02 pm in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044811

sealordlawrence
Participant

Don’t see anything there about the shape of the hull or “designed to a higher form”, maybe you should point that out to me.

You want to learn about naval construction go and buy a book. I have provided you with a source that states that Long Beach was the last US cruiser.

February 5, 2009 at 12:39 pm in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044850

sealordlawrence
Participant

Actually you’ve done nothing of the sort. You simply showed a picture of Long Beach that showed it had an old style hull. Big whoop. Nothing in what you’ve said so far does anything whatsoever to support your assertion. Want to do that? Find a source that supports what you’re claiming and show us that.

Try reading the thread, its at the bottom of the previous page.:rolleyes:

February 5, 2009 at 7:31 am in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044904

sealordlawrence
Participant

Uh, that’s just plain BS to put it kindly.

No its not, you have been shown both third party and photographic sources to prove it.

To have a real antiship missile.

To sink what?

Another what? RATTLRS is a missile, not a destroyer.

Destroyers are made up of components of which weapons are one, steel is cheap systems are not.

February 4, 2009 at 10:06 pm in reply to: Iran completes design phase of stealth aircraft #2463253

sealordlawrence
Participant

I’ll just ask a few questions:

The Commander-in-Chief of the USA was unaware thet Islam has 2 main streams of belief… true or false?

Iraq is a country with both Sunni and Shiite communities where under Saddam Hussein the Sunnis held sway… true or false?

Pre-invasion of Iraq: when asked by the Brits what plans for occupation the USA had made, there appeared to be none… true or false?

The USA was advised by the Brits that proper plans for occupation were required… true or false?

The USA declined to make proper plans for occupation, believing that once liberated from the brutal dictatorship of Saddam Hussein peace would ensue… true or false?

What has happened in Iraq following its military defeat is an object lesson in how not to go about occupying a country. I would say the same whichever military power had behaved so.

I think that invasion of Iran (should the USA embark on such a venture) would likely result in an even more unsuccessful outcome.

What you have forgotten to mention is that the consequence of all of the above has been one of the most enlightened and committed doctrinal shifts in US military history and a turn around almost unparalleled in the history of counter insurgency operations. So much so that UK military officers now openly admit that the US now exceeded the UK in this area. Far from making the same mistakes again the US is now more highly qualified than any other country to undertake such an operation.

I would suggest that you read the Royal United Services Institute Journal on a regular basis to discover how dispirited UK military officers are in comparison before you embark upon another ill-informed ‘all Americans are ignorant and need the British to solve their problems rant’.

And as you like questions here is one for you: When did the US introduce its new COIN manual and when did the UK introduce new COIN doctrine post 9/11?

February 4, 2009 at 2:12 pm in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2044993

sealordlawrence
Participant

Actually, a cruiser, is a vessel capable of acting independed or escorting carriers and battleships (in older times). So this vessel have 2 roles, and for that she should be armed for 4 dimentional war. (Antiair, antiship, ASW, and land attack). The older vessels like Virginia, or California classes are cruisers, as well as Ticos. A vessel with length of 171 m and 10000t maximum tonnage has the size of WWII light cruiser. All the other classes, like Beinbridge, Truxtun, Leahy etc are DDGs, and no doubt for that.

FALSE/COMPLETELY UNTRUE

Norman Polmar, United States Naval Institute, ‘The Naval Institute Guide to the Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet‘: pg.144. (2004)

‘Only one new-construction cruiser was built by the US Navy after World War 2, the Long Beach, ordered as CLGN 160, changed to CGN 160 and completed as CGN 9.’

Now can we please put this thread detracting nonsense to bed?

February 4, 2009 at 11:36 am in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2045051

sealordlawrence
Participant

The link below shows a picture of a KDX-III at sea, the ship looks very clean apart from the messay array of masts and antennae that top of the forward superstructure. The hull is obviously big enough to do everything the USN needs.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/upload/news/081003_p2_npn1.jpg

However the propulsion plant is still the same basic architecture used on the Spruances so it could do with an update for efficiency.

February 4, 2009 at 11:03 am in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2045054

sealordlawrence
Participant

“Built to a different hull form and higher shape”? What the hell is that suppose to mean? Unless it happened to be a member of the Long Beach class (of which there was only 1) EVERY ship in the world has a different hull form than it. Does that mean that Long Beach is the only cruiser ever built anywhere in the world? Could you come up with something a tad more “scientific”? It can’t be hull length because the South Dakota class BATTLESHIPs weren’t even as long as the Long Beach. In fact most WWII cruisers were closer to the Virginias in size and displacement than to the Long Beach.

Sorry I meant standard. Cruisers have a set type of BASIC hull form, this can be adapted to various sizes, call it tradition if you like, but the word cruiser has very different connotations other than just size. Otherwise the RN’s WW2 monitors would have been called cruisers.

Hull length is irrelevent and I have no idea why you raised that.

For a Burke Flight III I’d stretch the IIA a bit to fit 64 cells both fore and aft, fit it with ESSM, put Phalanx and Harpoon back on, and maybe find room to squeeze a RAM launcher or two on. Also I’d develope a RATTLRS-based land attack / antiship missile. While I was doing that I’d look at the next generation cruiser.

So basically a KDX-3. Why bother with Rattlrs? The problem has been with unneccessary futuristic designs absorbing huge amounts of budget, why introduce another? The USN/USMC is more than set when it comes to blowing things up on land.

February 4, 2009 at 10:58 am in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2045060

sealordlawrence
Participant

Yes, since it is being developed to maturity anyway, using the DD-1000 radar on more vessels makes sense. I forgot to add that a DDG-version of the propulsion- and electrical system on LHD-8 as suggested by sealord sounds great too.

So, a KDX-III hull variant with the new funnels, IFEP derived from the LHD-8 and a radar based on the system for the DD-1000. Sounds good to me 😀

I must admit that that is currently my favoured option, I am not even convinced about the need to replace Aegis but if there is a requirement then perhaps it would be easiest to develop an AESA array for Aegis that could be retrofiitted to the rest of the fleet?:confused:

February 3, 2009 at 8:05 pm in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2045108

sealordlawrence
Participant

What exactly is “a true cruiser hull”?

Built to a different hull form and a higher shape. For the hull form difference see the bottom picture in the below link:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://home.comcast.net/~cgn38/today/3-surf.jpg&imgrefurl=http://home.comcast.net/~cgn38/today/&usg=__XjS27hBf72OFE2S9Pclrr8qpGRs=&h=299&w=523&sz=21&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=w7TvMYKf5SlKMM:&tbnh=75&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3DUSS%2BLong%2BBeach%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us%26sa%3DN

Any suggestions about following on from the AB series now?

February 3, 2009 at 6:45 pm in reply to: Post DDG-51 tribulations. #2045112

sealordlawrence
Participant

Not upset. But simply saying “The last USN ship built on a cruiser hull was Long Beach” does not make it so. That’s why I asked if you had an “official” source. Hell, the California’s (610 feet 10,000+ tons) were referred to as frigates when they were launched. The whole class designation is a cluster anymore.

Part of my point, but Long Beach remains the last USN warship built on a true cruiser hull.

The thread however is not about that but about a replacement for the DDG1000 programme and the Ticos.
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