sealordlawrenceA hangar, or even a flight deck, wouldn’t be necessary for every C3 unit.
The RN’s helicopter fleet has become relatively modest in size, and many patrol tasks don’t require a helicopter. Drug interdiction and SAR might benefit from an embarked helicopter, but fisheries and environment patrols probably wouldn’t. Unless the UK procures minehunting/minesweeper gear for its helicopters, there isn’t much point of embarking a helicopter for the minecountermeasures task either.
It’s tempting to view the C3 as a means of expanding the diminished surface combatant fleet, but in reality, this type needs to smaller, cheaper and more austere than a true combatant.
Italy prefers the 76mm Super Rapide because Italy produces the 76mm Super Rapide! It is not certain that this system is the last word in CIWS, but it is certain that Italy’s OTOBreda is leading producer of gun systems and the Italian navy typically overarms its ships with OTOBreda gun -which serves to “support the home team.”
I would be inclined to say that a 76mm/57mm gun would be advisable against the “small boat threat” in a region such as the Persian gulf, but only as an addition to a Phalanx type CIWS.
The viability of CAAM for a small, cheap, MCM/OPV platform remains in doubt. The C3 is to be procured in fairly substantial numbers, and any escalation in unit costs might put paid the entire class of ships.
At no point did I say that the 76mm was the last word in CIWS, however a pretty impressive capability in being developed for it. The utility of helicopter capability is undeniable especially if these vessels are intended to be able to switch roles. Do you have a source that casts doubt on the viability of CAAM for a C3 unit?
sealordlawrenceI agree, but i think its folks views on it not being a sustainable food source. most of the various whale types are teetering on extinction due to mans pollution of their environment and also years of hunting.
May be i will be interesting when the cod stocks start to get seriously depleted ,like we are being warned about, and the unthinkable happens and our native staple fish cod becomes extinct , then lets see who breaks fishing embargoes then.
Has any one here ever tried whale meat is it worth all the fuss.
Thats the only real issue here, is it being done sustainably? if so then so be it, if not then the appropriate regulation and enforcement needs to be in place.
sealordlawrenceI agree, but i think its folks views on it not being a sustainable food source. most of the various whale types are teetering on extinction due to mans pollution of their environment and also years of hunting.
May be i will be interesting when the cod stocks start to get seriously depleted ,like we are being warned about, and the unthinkable happens and our native staple fish cod becomes extinct , then lets see who breaks fishing embargoes then.
Has any one here ever tried whale meat is it worth all the fuss.
Thats the only real issue here, is it being done sustainably? if so then so be it, if not then the appropriate regulation and enforcement needs to be in place.
sealordlawrenceI could live with the SAM being optional, a la STANFLEX, & left off when on certain deployments. Doing South Atlantic patrol for two years would probably not be good for SAMs: best leave them at home. And I want a hangar of some sort for that embarkable helicopter.
I second that. A hangar really needs to be an absolute. A fitted for but not with solution for CAAM would probably suffice, especially if a decent medium calibre was to be fitted such as the 76mm which seems to increasingly be a feature of Italian ships self defence suite against missiles as well as small boats.
sealordlawrenceIs this the Bushido Code relative to whales, I heard the Japanese ministers excuses on the Jeremy Vine show the other week, it was, yes, well, relating to ear wax, ‘ The more whales you kill, the more earwax you get, makes us understand how long they live’, what a load of cr#p.
Obviously explains their treatment of POW’s during the war, ‘Work hard on railway and we look after earwax and see how long you live’, pity they didn’t think of that excuse in 1945, or perhaps they did, sorry, I had relatives who suffered at the hands of these peoples grand parents during the war, it must be a genetic sadism clause.
Can’t we lend Greenpeace a redundant Type 42 and see what they try and kill then, I’d like to see that factory ship light up the sky.
I get upset over killing a rat, whales are awesome, they have suffered so much and they are such beautiful creatures, humans don’t need to kill and eat them, which is what this is all about, what is wrong with these people, have we any Japanese contributers on here.
Why is Japanese people wanting to eat whale meat any different to you, I or anybody else wanting to eat Cod, Haddock, Crab, Beef, Chicken, Rabbit, Goose, Turkey, Duck, Lamb, Pork etc etc etc?:confused:
sealordlawrenceIs this the Bushido Code relative to whales, I heard the Japanese ministers excuses on the Jeremy Vine show the other week, it was, yes, well, relating to ear wax, ‘ The more whales you kill, the more earwax you get, makes us understand how long they live’, what a load of cr#p.
Obviously explains their treatment of POW’s during the war, ‘Work hard on railway and we look after earwax and see how long you live’, pity they didn’t think of that excuse in 1945, or perhaps they did, sorry, I had relatives who suffered at the hands of these peoples grand parents during the war, it must be a genetic sadism clause.
Can’t we lend Greenpeace a redundant Type 42 and see what they try and kill then, I’d like to see that factory ship light up the sky.
I get upset over killing a rat, whales are awesome, they have suffered so much and they are such beautiful creatures, humans don’t need to kill and eat them, which is what this is all about, what is wrong with these people, have we any Japanese contributers on here.
Why is Japanese people wanting to eat whale meat any different to you, I or anybody else wanting to eat Cod, Haddock, Crab, Beef, Chicken, Rabbit, Goose, Turkey, Duck, Lamb, Pork etc etc etc?:confused:
sealordlawrenceChina/India catch up in what sense? First the have to produce there own science not just reproducing cheaply (and that also through open source)what is already present. Both China/India are completely depndend upon OPEC which will further squeeze them in future as they become more dependent. Both will become deficient in Water and Food.(first signs are already there).They have 1000 dependencies. Simply they cant sustain inflation over longer period of time. A country can only become Superpower which is in surplus and independent economically.
Russia will be selling Water to China instead of weopons. Russia does not need to sell weopons at loss. Those days are over.
You might have racist views towards Indians and the Chinese but I dont.
sealordlawrenceSLL, It is clear that you like a good on-line debate. I suggest that you join PPRuNe and actually debate the issue with serving and retired members of the RAF. The politicians wouldn’t even go near this issue.
You do realise that such re-location to ‘appropriate commands’ would simply be a disaster for retention of personnel? People would simply walk! How on earth would you replace the experience of those walking?
SLL, seriously if you were in charge and actually tried to oversee this change, then you would see that it is purely a pipe-dream.
People, would not simply walk, that might say they would now but its doubtful they would in reality.
Of course it will never happen but I see no reason not to discuss it.
sealordlawrence“The correct results?”
The correct result is for air power to be wielded by a specialised organisation that actually understands air power, that is able to use and exploit it, and for whom air power will always be a funding priority.
Not to give the responsibility for CAS to an organisation that has proven incapable of maintaining and supporting complex aircraft types, or that misuses its air power assets whenever a senior officer needs an airborne taxi (the Army Air Corps).
Nor to an organisation that regards air power as being so unimportant that the career progression of its professional aviators depends on them leaving any air-power related post in order to waste time driving a big grey ship around. An organisation that has failed to recruit and retain enough high calibre aviators to meet its manning commitments in either Joint Force Harrier or Joint Helicopter Command.
And Air Power remains a crucial, war-winning capability, arguably more important than sea or land forces. I’m not silly enough to suggest putting the RN under RAF Marine Branch command, nor to put forward the idea of absorbing the Army into an enlarged RAF Regiment – though such ideas would be no less barking than the anti-RAF nonsense that you’ve been spouting, Lawrence.
:rolleyes:
I ignore as a force of habit so I will continue.
sealordlawrenceMy point is the military relationship between Russia and China is not in the interest of India. Further, that China (not India) has a bad habit of stealing (i.e. coping) imported hardware and technology……….While, Russia and China may get along fine. India and China do not……….:rolleyes:
Thats precisely my point, all three have long term reasons to not get along, Indian Chinese animosity is well known and all three will likely end up with competing interests in central Asia whilst being very powerful countries in close proximity to each other.
sealordlawrenceYou have to live in the real world here. Where on earth would the RN get the personnel from? How many Nimrod aircrew do you think would re-badge to the RN? Think about the whole re-organising of UKs forces for this to take place? It is a complete non-starter. A complete Colonel Tim Collins fantasy land. How ever much people jump up and down and bump their gums over this issue nothing is going to change.
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index….ID=1&subID=482
The debate ‘Disband the RAF’ has been done to death on the Mil Aircrew forum at PPRuNe.
From the RAF. By disband I dont mean eradicate, simply realocate existing forces to more appropriate commands and wait for time to produce the correct results.
sealordlawrenceHahahahahahaha… comparing Russias’ relationship with India and Russias’ relationship with China and coming up with the wrong answer. When was the last time India and Russia had a border dispute? When was the last time India took a piece of Russian technology and copied it directly without a licence?
India and Russia are friends. Not because their parents made them eat lunch together at school every day, but because they have traded for a long time and helped each other. Russia has helped India against its enemies and India if not the same at least has never actively supported Russias enemies. Can’t say the same about China. Russia certainly handed Manchuria to China at the end of WWII and gave the invading Japanese what’O in that area, but since then China started out as an ally and then strayed to the west and when shunned from the west has turned to Russia again for its military buildup. No doubt if European military equipment was more available the Chinese would no doubt drop Russia as a supplier in a heartbeat. India on the other hand already has access to western stuff and sometimes does buy from the west.
At the end of the day the Russians could have simply ignored the state of the cabling and put the vessel together on time and without extra cost. Wouldn’t like to be the customer that got that POS however.
With fully upgraded cabling the Indians are getting a much better ship than they would have gotten otherwise.
Authoritarian state versus democratic state.
Growing economic powers who share the same backyard.
Russia and China get on just fine right now.
Feel free to disagree but I see plenty of reason for all three to end up with mutual suspicions and dislike for each other in the long term
sealordlawrenceWhile, it mite be in the interests of Russia to sell arms to China. It clearly is not in the interests of India. Further, besides selling much of the same weapons to China as India. India has now to re-negotiate and pay more for contracts already signed! Further, China has a bad habit of coping (illegally) imported hardware without license. India has been a long term and loyal customer of Russia. Personally, I can see why she is so up-set and looking to the West! (i.e. UK, France, and US):eek:
Precisely, all 3 countries are potentially very powerful, China and India more than Russia. In the long term (decades) technology transfer makes little difference, both India and China will catch up with the rest of the world in probably the same time frame.
sealordlawrenceIf they are endangered dont kill them, if they are not endangered feel free to kill them as long as it is done in long term sustainable way.
sealordlawrenceIf they are endangered dont kill them, if they are not endangered feel free to kill them as long as it is done in long term sustainable way.
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