Hi everyone 0/ , being a keen naval war gamer playing Harpoon ANW rather to much this is a very very interesting discussion, my question to ‘those in the know’ about such matters is this: In a potentially huge engagement between American forces and Russian forces that requires anywhere from hundreds to literally thousands of us – yes ‘us’ as in people, the critical element of any such operations which leads me to wonder are the Russians well up to the standard required in terms of training, now i realise this might touchy subject with many on the boards but the issue is a critical factor.

I ask about the Russians and not the American forces not because im some trying to troll but because i believe in general the yanks are well up to the task, not because there superior beings (thats us Brits btw hehe ) but because they get to do a hell of alot of training. How do the Russians fair in this critical department, even now with increasing economic success are they really getting sufficient air time/sea time and training in general?

Exceptionally good point. This is why I keep asking about the operational readiness of the Russian navy, training days per year, days spent at sea, even just proficiency training ashore. There has to be very real doubts about the proficiency of Russian sailors compared to their US counterparts. Dionis obviously will not accept this but he is the same guy who invents weapons systems and claims that the fact that the vast majority of Russian warships have not been upgraded in 20 years does not matter.

If Russia is judged to be the primary future threat, a defense review should fund the Trident replacement and scrap CVF, FSC and even further Type 45 units. A Russian threat is a strategic threat, to be countered solely by deterrent forces. If you really believe Russia is the sole future threat, you can forget expenditionary warfare, amphibious forces, big deck carriers, and even ASW escorts because Russian SSBNs in home waters can’t be eliminated by surface combatants.

The truth is that Russia has ceased to be a major conventional naval power. We can expect new Russian ballistic and cruise missile submarines, as a well as frigate sized surface combatants, but Russia is still a long way from rebuilding to the Soviet era levels of conventional capabilities. Soviet era naval policies which emphasized large cruisers and destroyers were mistaken at the time and probably won’t ever be repeated by modern Russia.

This is a rare occasion when what Tinwing says is actually correct.

There is however two questions here, is Russia a major strategic threat to British security, the answer there is really no. If it is then the best way forward is greater cooperation and unity within Europe.

Then the next question, do you want to defend against Russia or deter Russia?

For detterence not that much would have to be done, just insure that Trident can still penetrate any Russian ABM systems and that the SSBN’s carrying it are safe from being caught by Russian SSN’s before they launch their missiles.

If you want to defend against Russia then the UK has to produce a strategic defense system the likes of which the world has not yet seen. A combined AD/ABM/ASAT network that is self shielding and offers the UK 100% coverage. The end result would probably be a UK economy structured somewhat like that of North Korea.

What should the UK do? Renew trident (being done anyway) and make sure that FSC retains a decent ASW/sea control capability, other than that just carry on as normal.

Doesn’t matter. Sounds like what he’s proposing is using a Su-24 playing the role of sitting duck to guide the Kh-101 launched from far away in. Why anybody would want to do that even if were possible is beyond me. Just stick a shorter range missile on the Su-24 and avoid the middle man and save your own butt at the same time.

Using a dedicated AShM would be a start, after all the Russians have plenty to choose from.

The upgrades are irrelevant as long as the systems are maintained.

The 80s era SAMs, and ASMs are well capable of putting up a fight against the ships of other navies with the right tactics.

And either way, all this is more small time security than deterrent, at least for another 10 years while the Navy modernizes.

As long as Russia has its prime nuclear arsenal of ICBMs, no one is going to set foot on Russian soil uninvited.

. . . and potentially a newly built IRBM force (like the older SS-20) which in the past could have annihilated Europe in what – 23 minutes – since the US is now pretty much pushing themselves into Eastern Europe with their missile defense system.

The upgrades certainly do matter! What a childish statement!:eek:

Before we get on to the old chestnut that China gets treated worse than India in terms of arms transfers it should be pointed out that there is not actually any evidence for this.

My personal favorite is the comparison between the Su-30MKI and the Su-30MK2. Sure the MKI is a better aircraft but the reason behind that is not Russia’s attitude to China but about Chinas 1996 desire for immediate capability. The spending splurge that occurred in the immediate aftermath of the 1996 straights crisis does not fit with the long term Chinese procurement and development plans and was intended to try and offset some of the humiliation caused by the arrival of the USN.

Sovremennys/Moskits
Kilos/Klubs
S-300FM
Help for the Chinese space program
etc.

China has got plenty out of Russia.

China got the crown jewels just as India did

Thanks a lot for these great drawings!

Kirov is a real monster isn’t it?

Anybody wondering about how an american counterpart (newbuilding) whould have looked like?

People often give the arsenal ship as an example of this but it would probably have never been built and was really a different concept. Without the development of a Soviet style heavy AShM doctrine the USN would likely have never built anything like a Kirov. The distributed and highly capable nature of Aegis really does not require a large ship.

There are currently suggestions for a 25,000ton ABM cruiser equipped with KEI but personally I can not see it ever getting built. It will be interesting to see if in the next few years any of the surviving Kirov’s get a ‘real’ upgrade. It would be awesome to see them with an S-400F type system, 96 400km ATBM capable missiles with a decent fire control system would make for a remarkable fleet AD asset. Considering that the Granits were designed and built in the late 70s/80s there must be some considerable room to improve the flight control, navigation, and homing systems.

with a comprehensive load :

Awesome awesome image……….it just needs the CFT’s now!:diablo:

Hah, I really, REALLY want to hear the explanation for this…So when thread starts with “more Russian porn”, its not bashing? So if I would start a thread about american military exersice with “more yankee jerking off…”, would you call it bashing? Just out of curiosity, if you are about to start a thread in some porn-site about latest slavic pornstars, would you call it “Tu-160 takes part ot missile firing exersice in the coast of Spain”???

Porn is a somewhat neutral phrase indicating purely a visual object/image for some form of gratification. Jerking off on the other hand refers to an action and is somewhat different. The usage of the word porn in this context is actually rather suitable, it could describe both how forumers here may see it, after all we all love watching planes and warships…….especially if they have Soviet heritage and global ambitions. It could also refer to how this is intended to be viewed in Russia as a demonstration of renewed power prior to upcoming elections.