sealordlawrenceNot disputing the importance of the RN’s role now. But we are talking about developments that increasingly outlast the political backing they started with. I doubt CVF would be cancelled, btu whether in 2014 we are looking at the ship we thought we’d be looking at now, remains to be seen.
Which makes UK/NATO policy at the time largely irrelevant. If the nukes had already flown (even on a limited scale), the RN is baseless, thus on a short life, chasing SSBNs that may have already served their purpose. Even the role of transporting to Norway and Denmark is presumably moot. But they felt it neccessary to prepare for a war, which might not have gone nuclear immediately, so why assume that nothing else would need to be considered?
Again, the creation of the perception of will, deterrence is about the mind, by giving the impression that there is a genuine will/ desire to fight. Operationally irrelevant maybe but politically not.
sealordlawrenceYea… but can that be mounted on the heads of frickin’ sharks???:diablo:
That is the true future of laser weapons. Frickin’ sharks with lasers on their head.
But that will make the bad tempered, mutated Sea Bass redundant!:eek: 😀
Or maybe they could just upgrade them with the same head mounted lasers used for the Sharks (downgraded obviously) and export them to the middle eastern allies?:D
sealordlawrenceI don’t remember any source claiming Iranians being able to produce 100% of Tomcat parts. The best figure I have ever seen was 80% of all necessary spares, usually it is even less.
A production of new Tomcats can be easily ruled out. Installing Russian engines or radars is very unlikely, IMHO.
I have seen one. I cant remember where but I have definately seen one.
sealordlawrenceMaybe they are already building new Tomcats :diablo: .
But, seriosly – maybe there is a virtual possibility to purchase some numbers of new radars from Phazotron and install them on Tomcats. I don’t know how difficult such installation could be or even if it is possible. New missiles will come automatically with new radars. Engines – maybe there is no possibility to fit alternative engines.
There is zero evidence, not even rumors that they are building new Tomcats.
sealordlawrenceDefinitely a possible maybe there I’m afraid. In my case my job more often then not involves weekend night shifts and I have no intention of finishing work at 7am and having to wait until 8.30 for a bus to town where I’d have to change busses to get out of town and home ( a total journey time of about an hour) when I can get in my car and be home in 12-15 minutes on a Saturday Or Sunday morning without exceeding any speed limits. Before anyone asks no, car sharing is not an option as most of the jobs are single man sites. No, I’m not going to change jobs either as I enjoy the job I do and at my age no one would think of taking me on anyway (ageism is alive and well in this area)
So, you fall into the 20%, you do understand the percentage system dont you?:rolleyes:
sealordlawrenceDefinitely a possible maybe there I’m afraid. In my case my job more often then not involves weekend night shifts and I have no intention of finishing work at 7am and having to wait until 8.30 for a bus to town where I’d have to change busses to get out of town and home ( a total journey time of about an hour) when I can get in my car and be home in 12-15 minutes on a Saturday Or Sunday morning without exceeding any speed limits. Before anyone asks no, car sharing is not an option as most of the jobs are single man sites. No, I’m not going to change jobs either as I enjoy the job I do and at my age no one would think of taking me on anyway (ageism is alive and well in this area)
So, you fall into the 20%, you do understand the percentage system dont you?:rolleyes:
sealordlawrenceWhat part of the getup turns it from a Military transport to a Spec ops ? Will it have a Howitzer or mortors on it or something similar?
Weapons are not part of the package, the specia forces element will likely be improved self defense and navigation systems.
sealordlawrenceI’ve come across some articles recently which say the Iranians are infact refurbishing & up-grading their tomcats. As far as I know, the Iranians have basically been using a handfull their 25 operational tommy’s for AWAC platforms, but apparently there are rumours of new russian built engines, the ability to carry GBUs and anti-ship missiles. The Iranians claim to be able to manufacture the tomcats parts 100% locally, but I can’t give any credit towards that… are the Iranians just lying or are these updates possible?
This comes up fairly frequently with claims usually being the same, Russian engines, Russian missiles, Russian radar, etc etc. Yet no evidence has ever been provided to back up these claims. If the Iranians really can produce 100% of the components in a Tomcat then the question has to be asked as to why they are not building new ones? My suspicion is that they can produce 100% of the spares needed to keep them flying but not a lot else.
sealordlawrenceWhcih makes me wonder why they bothered with all those army formations in Eastern Europe, or was it only Britain that was going to nuked?
As to Afghanistan, not sure the significance. Unless i missed something, they didn’t use them there?
Which is back to the narrow mindedness of the politicians, but I see your point about the importance of the deterant role in that context.
Indeed, it has – and will have – great potential, IF it is developed properly and maintained. There are potentially too many high-value assets (amphib, CV) without the adequate support, or too few platforms to provide the scope and response (TLAM carrying SSN).
Despite the protestations of the army and the RAF, the RN is the most powerful power projection asset the UK has and there is nothing on the horizon that will change that.
The point is that any Soviet operation in Europe would have gone nuclear within hours at best, that is the point. Research their doctrine and you will see. The armored divisions were cycological, they represented a kind of vague intention to resist.
sealordlawrenceThe RAF lost out because they couldn’t deliver through either the TSR-2 or the F111. Of course, even if these aircraft had made it to the RAF, would the “string of island bases” been intact to base them?
As to the nukes, what does this give the RN? One rather narrow role, which given current potential conflicts is unlikely to be used.
Oh, I wasn’t disputing that, thus the follies was in quotes. Ironically, the fact that a Stalin naval force didn’t appear, made the castration of the RN easier to do. A more viable surface threat might have concentrated the minds….
The fact that the navy’s “near sole role” was to fight the SU was a political descision, which *hoped* (or was arrogant enough) to assume that no one would trouble us else where. Even in performing that sole role, it was too narrow, concentrating as you say on the SSBN/SSN battle. If war has broken out without an opening exchange of nukes, then of course transatlantic shipping was going to be important, and so to its protection. You’re going to look foolish if you wake up the next day to find you haven’t been nuked, but by-the-way, Soviets are in Paris/Scotland/whereever, oh and we’re out of ammo.
Its not like the possibility of invasion was so completely unheard of. Rumours of earlier build-ups (78?) had existed and been acted on.
Vanguard to Trident. Trans-atlantic shipping was not going to be important becouse there was going to be nothing to ship too, all the ports would have been vaporised. The RN abandoned the Broken backed warfare idea quite quickly.
Prior to the Falklands the sole role of the UK’s armed forces was fighting the cold war, in that sense getting the Nuclear detterent made the RN very important. Even now the RN is doing extroardinarily well and is rapidly developing into the UK’s primary power projection force, with a very powerful amphib fleet, Tomahawk armed SSN’s and now the CVF as well.
The soviets would have gone nuclear straight a way. Every piece of Soviet Doctrine stipulated the use of nukes to the extent that when they went to Afghanistan they took them with them.
sealordlawrenceSoviet Union collapse is not in long term interest of US. when u think a little harder.
You are in no position to tell anybody to think.
sealordlawrenceYep, I think that is a sign of persisting intelligence.. 😉 But, for all intents and purposes, nowadays, Americans are very successful with their own population, too.. 😉
Only in your fantasy land.:p
sealordlawrenceI guess the Soviet system is not comparable to today’s market. The SU sold most of its weapons to dependant countries, which were not allowed or simply not able to buy alternative systems.
Like the Russians the Americans have different “friend-categories”. Some only get the crappy stuff (remember F-16/79 or MiG-23MS). Some get the best.Compared to normal trade arms deals are not truly relevant. Germany for example exports ~1000 billion Euros worth of goods this year, of which less than 5 are arms or arms related exports. The USA has lower overall exports (~500-700 billion USD), which don’t make such an important part of the economy anyways. Actually, Hollywood films and Britney Spears (only yellow press nowadays) make more profit for the US economy, are welcomed all over the world and threaten the Mullahs more effectively.
In the future take note of the big grinning smiley.
sealordlawrenceWell… I think they are more successful with their own population. 😎
Not really, the Soviet Union collapsed.:p 😀
sealordlawrenceWell said.. The practices might look a bit machiavellistic, but the cold-hearted logic is there in every word you’ve written: keep your neighbours stupid and dependant..
Exaclty, it worked for Soviet Union for a few decades but it turned out that the Americans are better at it.:D
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