sealordlawrenceGot to go with Tinwing here….what would you modernise this monster into?.
Its a non-fun answer I’m sorry, but, Kirov was designed to do one job and that was to sit in the middle of the Atlantic and be a bloody nuisance to NATO vessels. It doesnt really make sense doing much else with the thing!.
Some kind of self-supporting arsenal ship perhaps?. I’d have to do the calculations but at a thumb-in-the air guess you’d get a couple of hundred 3s-14 Klub cells in the space occupied by the P-700 tubes. Filling those with LACM variants could make it a hugely powerful strike asset and I’d worry a LOT more about a ship with upwards of a hundred 3M-54E’s than I would 20 P-700’s in the antiship role.
Hugely expensive vessel to perform those kinds of missions in support of a real taskgroup centrepiece – a carrier – though.
Bang on the money, and add to that that her size was determined not by a desire to build a huge ship but by the fact that that was how big the ship had to be to carry all the required systems. Take away the AShM battery and what you are left with is less valuable than a Ticonderoga. Its all about that AShM battery.
sealordlawrenceI’m thinking of the case of China launching long range ballistic antiship missiles. They won’t be throwing just one or two.
Not in the mission statement, if China is lobbing missiles at US forces we have crossed the line whereby the current ABM system is intended to function.
sealordlawrenceUseless provocation to those countries, especially because US and allies start to scream when Iran tests some of its missiles. After all, Iran may say that “those countries like USA, Israel or U.Kingdom must know that Iran, and the Aryan Armed Forces will retaliate in case of a western aggression”.
How is saying ‘you cant attack me’ provocation?:rolleyes:
sealordlawrenceI continue to be amazed by the fact that the Republican Party has done such an amazing job in convincing working and middle class people that they are best served by trickle down economics and small government, when it has been shown today with no uncertainty to only work for the benefit of the rich.
I think the true measure of a country is not it’s wealth, it’s power, it’s resources or reputation, but in how it takes care of it’s poorest and weakest. I understand the self reliant pioneer spirit that Americans have and I understand how important it has been to their history and psyche. But when millions go bankrupt due to the flawed health care system you have, when millions lose their homes due to a de-regulated/trickle down economic system geared towards serving the rich, I ask what kind of American Dream really exists anymore? Your nation now sees the largest gap between the wealth of the rich and the poor than at any time in it’s history.
Is that what you want for your children?
Dude get of your high horse.
The above is just poetic nonsense, yes the healthcare system is flawed, but the economy only became geared towards the rich under bush, he broke a balance that otherwise worked ok.
As for what I want for my children, I want them to grow up in a country that both drives them forwards and lets them go without restraint. I want them to dream their own futures and then pursue them independantly, and as recent events have shown that prospect still exisits in America in a way in which it does not in most of the rest of the world.
sealordlawrenceI continue to be amazed by the fact that the Republican Party has done such an amazing job in convincing working and middle class people that they are best served by trickle down economics and small government, when it has been shown today with no uncertainty to only work for the benefit of the rich.
I think the true measure of a country is not it’s wealth, it’s power, it’s resources or reputation, but in how it takes care of it’s poorest and weakest. I understand the self reliant pioneer spirit that Americans have and I understand how important it has been to their history and psyche. But when millions go bankrupt due to the flawed health care system you have, when millions lose their homes due to a de-regulated/trickle down economic system geared towards serving the rich, I ask what kind of American Dream really exists anymore? Your nation now sees the largest gap between the wealth of the rich and the poor than at any time in it’s history.
Is that what you want for your children?
Dude get of your high horse.
The above is just poetic nonsense, yes the healthcare system is flawed, but the economy only became geared towards the rich under bush, he broke a balance that otherwise worked ok.
As for what I want for my children, I want them to grow up in a country that both drives them forwards and lets them go without restraint. I want them to dream their own futures and then pursue them independantly, and as recent events have shown that prospect still exisits in America in a way in which it does not in most of the rest of the world.
sealordlawrence..ha ha that’s really funny…..
the notion of a ‘greater good’ obviously doesn’t inspire you then….
Do you enjoy donating money to the ignorant and lazy? Or do you qualifiy for funds under such criteria?:rolleyes:
sealordlawrence..ha ha that’s really funny…..
the notion of a ‘greater good’ obviously doesn’t inspire you then….
Do you enjoy donating money to the ignorant and lazy? Or do you qualifiy for funds under such criteria?:rolleyes:
sealordlawrenceBy all means carry on along this line (because it’s just as interesting as my point) but please note that I raised the issue of incorporating commercial technologies, not necessarily of building vessels to commercial standards. The two don’t have to go together. 🙂
I think you will find that there are few commercial technologies that have not found their way into navies that could have a use.;)
sealordlawrenceEllison closed his report with this statement: “This test by the United States Navy validates an already successful system and demonstrates to those countries like North Korea, Iran and Syria that the United States’ National Security, the U.S. Armed Forces and her allies will be protected and defended.”
And there is the reason for all the ABM effort. This is to tell the loser (I dont like rogue) countrys that they can spend all of their hard earned drug money on ballistic missiles but it will get them squat in terms of regional power so long as the United States maintains a presence, thus the US keeps its allies and the loser countrys remain isolated. See UAE THAAD’s as a perfect example of this in action.
Oh and if you try and build nukes we will get Israel to bomb the reactors so dont bother with that either.
sealordlawrenceIn general terms mercantile standards have been gradually creeping their way into naval use for a long time now.
The issue I have with this concept is that the benefits in cost and maintenance are outweighed by the fact that you are sacrificing damage control and the safety of your valuable crews by potentially putting them in harms way in a craft that does not have adequate ability to protect them from unecessary risk.
The flip side is that you may not be able to recruit that crew in the first place, personnel are not just expensive but also hard to come by, more automisation, less crew.
On the issue of mercantile standards, remember that this has only really started to happen since the end of th cold war, ie when there is no threat of a ship being put into actual combat. Most modern naval vessels are just platforms fro troops or weapons and will never be fired upon except by the occasional small boat.
sealordlawrenceBecause of the propulsion? If so, what about the single-engine (Avon) version?
And back to the P.1121, which I’ve thought of as one of the great missed opportunities ever since I heard of it.
Mock-up at Hawkers – this picture is in Bill Gunstons “Fighters of the Fifties”.
Three-way drawingIt’s been suggested elsewhere that the P.1121 (sometimes referred to as the Hurricane) didn’t get Air Ministry backing because it was realistic, not a Mach 3 uber-fighter built of unobtanium. 🙁 What do people think of it? Could it have been the British Phantom?
Absolutely, if it had been given a sensible engine (3 were proposed, Conway, Gryon and Olympus), such as Olympus it could have easily sat between the Mirage 3/5/50 and taken orders from both. The only area it may have been lacking given the poor scope of British radar and missile technology is armament.
sealordlawrenceYes but, the true complaints totalled 2. (The actual complaints following or during the show at Broadcast time)
The rest were treating it as if voting somebody off Big Brother. They knew that mass phonings would get at Brand out. He is hated or loved, the haters phoned in for a lark. There is no phone number for praising, I’m sure that would have had 30,000 “Votes” to keep him.
Yes, he was a n**head for telephoning the Grandad of his conquest. It would have been even worse if she wasn’t a stripper and didn’t sleep with him!
Makes no difference, what Brand and Ross did was disgusting and your decision to support them is concerning.
sealordlawrenceYes but, the true complaints totalled 2. (The actual complaints following or during the show at Broadcast time)
The rest were treating it as if voting somebody off Big Brother. They knew that mass phonings would get at Brand out. He is hated or loved, the haters phoned in for a lark. There is no phone number for praising, I’m sure that would have had 30,000 “Votes” to keep him.
Yes, he was a n**head for telephoning the Grandad of his conquest. It would have been even worse if she wasn’t a stripper and didn’t sleep with him!
Makes no difference, what Brand and Ross did was disgusting and your decision to support them is concerning.
sealordlawrenceLion was decommissioned an the mid 60s and held in reserve for a while. Her conversion was cancelled in 1969 or thereabouts and afterwards she was used as a source of spare parts for her sisters, so much so that Tiger was soon nicknamed Liger! After paying off her crew was dispersed throughout the fleet so cannot be added to this equation. Thanks for trying to help though. I have always believed the RNs manpower crisis of the late 70s was in part as a result of the perception that there wasn’t much of a Navy to join amongst the general public (at least those who would have been interested in joining); “Join the Navy, see the world! Well see the North Atlantic in Winter, maybe the odd trip to the Med, a lot of bobbing around off Norway, and hope the Russians don’t attack because we won’t have any air cover beyond UK coastal waters! Oh and the pay and accomodation isn’t much better than when your dad served…”
The RN had the infrastructure to support five CVs in the 60s, it seems odd to suggest they could not support two in the 70s. They had been planning to do so right up until 1969 when Eagle’s Phantomisation was cancelled. Two helicopter cruisers over one CV? No cruiser of the 70s could hope to match the firepower of a strike carrier or come close to the flexibility. No contest.
More flexible yes, more expensive yes. A cruiser takes allot less supporting, funding and crewing than a CV. Infrastructure does not just exisit, it also requires funding, supporting and manning and scales up with the size of the ships it needs to support.
sealordlawrenceI am rather hoping that aletken will provide some input, his grasp of the politics and economics of the era is far greater than my own and his library seems something to truly envy!
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