sealordlawrenceDon’t expect much form sealoardlawrence. It’s either Jane’s of Podvig for him, and when even those sources are against his non-sense, he’ll just pretend they aren’t.
Provide realiable and accurate sources and i will listen, but as you have just shown with the above you can not.
sealordlawrencePodvig is not a realible surce anymore. Too many “unconfirmed” news and “unconfirmed failures”. His forecasting about retirement of Topol were too far from the real numbers. He also “witdraw” the Ss-N-18 monts before confirmed real tests. Too many wrongs.
He is far more accurate than you, all you are criticising is analysis, none of which he ever reported as fact and all of which he later corrected.
sealordlawrenceOnce again swerve plays fast & loose with the facts & misrepresents the truth.
Having read swerve’s post’s that it is certainly not the case and frankly the above post is grossly inaccurate.
sealordlawrenceWhat are you talking about? Dmitri tested the missile successfully in 2005. Go read the news a little more carefully then come back here.
# 2005.10.09 successfully launched SS-NX-30 Bulava SLBM from surface.
# 2005.12.21 successfully launched SS-NX-30 Bulava SLBM from submerged position on move.
The real test history: http://russianforces.org/blog/2007/11/bulava_test_history.shtml
sealordlawrenceYour reputation for discrediting anything you don’t like doesn’t help. :rolleyes:
Look harder, most RuN compilation sites (globalsecurity, wikipedia, warfare.ru) list at least 2 vessels as possibly being modernized. And don’t bother whining about sources.
All discredited by the brutal reality that there are not enough missiles, got any viable articles for this, RIA perhaps?:rolleyes:
sealordlawrenceAlso, AFAIK, 2 Typhoon vessels are being refitted with the Bulava.
Arkhangelsk and Dmitri Donskoi.
There was also rumor about the refit going to Severstal as well?
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Out of curiosity, is it possible to tell when Google Earth imagery was taken? Is the ‘copyright’ date relevant?
Was checking out the Northern Fleet bases at Severomorsk and Severodvinsk and nothing has moved . . .
AFAIK is not a viable source.:rolleyes:
To realise the stupidity of these claims what is being suggested is that the Russians are going to produce as many Bulava’s in the next couple of years as they are Topol-Ms between 2007 and 2015. Utterly absurd. We are now approaching 2009 rapidly with no sign that Bulava is truly ready for production and by the end of 2009 there will likely be 32 launchers tied up pier side awaiting missiles, no capacity on the short or medium term for the typhoon’s.
sealordlawrenceThe Bulava has been launched successfully. . .
Several failures merely set it back for further tweaking.
No it has not, there has yet to be a single test launch of a complete missile that was 100% successful. Discussions were recntly held to determine what was required to make the missile work and we have yet to see a test launch since then.
sealordlawrence[QUOTE=Austin;1294948]
AFAIK the other units are the newest of all( i.e. the last to be commisioned ) , the Donsky is the first to be commisioned and has been converted into Bulava launch platform.
This has already been explained to you, age is irrelevent, maintenance level is what counts, how have the surviving ships been looked after since their decomissioning?
If they want it they can do a refit on the other two and get it ready with Bulava
You mean the missile that has yet to have a successful test launch and has at least one hull sitting in the water waiting for it already?:rolleyes:
Its not common in Russia to accuse a Sr Admiral of leaking state secret , every one thought that all the SS-N-20 was destroyed but it was not the case.
So what if the ten missiles remain, they are long passed their sell by date and the carrier ship is out of commission.
In theory 10 SS-N-20 would translate into 100 Warhead and the Typhoon can still stay on pier and launch it.
Just a theory that looks very week when stood next to facts.
I dont see how being twice the displacement should increase its cost of operation , if it indeed does it would be marginal.
It is common knowledge that the ships cost significantly more to operate, they are far more complex, including far more active silencing features not to mention the size. Think of the difference between a Victor-III and an Akula.
If operating cost was such a consideration , they would have easily converted the old Delta III into Bulava test platform , and would not have taken the trouble to convert the oldest of Typhoon for it , it shows the Russians are serious about keeping the Typhoon in fleet and why not .
nonsense, it would have required a massive effort to convert a Delta as the missiles dont fit, The Bulava on the other hand can use the existing tubes.
According to the Russian Navy Chief , the final trials of Bulava will be conducted in October-November this year , which means the Bulava should be ready to have initial Operational clearance , and RuN is confident about Bulava test done so far.
Yeah so confident that the weapon has yet to have a successful launch.
I dont see why Bulava should not be ready for trials with YD by early next year.
Perhaps for exactly the same reason that it has not been ready for the last decade, it does not work yet?:rolleyes: the it needs t be produced and a full compliment provided to the Boreis. There simply is not the capacity at the moment to fit out the Typhoons too.
sealordlawrenceWell its not decommissioned , I see no reason why it should be badly maintained , she can be in service after her refit
I was referring to the other units, not the current trials ship.
Yeah who knows , but Sr Navy guy who disclosed that 10 SLBM were present on those boats was accused of reveling state secret
so what if he was, thats pretty common in Russia and it means nothing, not to mention that it was over four years ago!
Why should it be more expensive to operate than lets Delta IV , part of the problem , Yes but for the West 😀
Because they displace over 30,000 tonnes and are essentially two Delta’s bolted together?:rolleyes:
Then the is the fact that the hold up with the Borei’s is no longer in their construction but the inability of Bulava to actually work. The reactivation and overhaul of the Typhoons would do nothing but increase the line of ships tied up alongside waiting for Bulava’s.
sealordlawrencethe source says:
“Whilst there was no mention of this missile being used as an ASAT or BPI, the capability would appear to be there, if required.”and I said it may have this capability; the source’s also claim is again not definite but it’s about probablity.
Although not mention in the source, I heard about terminal interception of balistic missiles. But I don’t have any source, cause I don’t remember where I read.
It does not say it ‘may’ have this capability, it says that the author thinks it could possibly be given that capability at some point in the future, the author even states that he has no evidence to support this notion. If anything it looks like irresponsible journalism.
sealordlawrenceAs I have mentioned before one of the Typhoon ( think its
Arkhangelsk ) has 10 SS-N-20 still left , as in they were not destroyed , though should be at the end of warranty life , but given Russia has been using missiles much after the end of its life after technical update.The remaining two typhoon are relatively newer compared to Donski which is the oldest , and they are not decommisioned , technically it is very much possible to get them back into service after mid life modernisation.
Depending if Russia feels the need to have more SLBM for operational requirement , these Typhoon which can be made Bulava capable should be capable of serving atleast 15 years after modernisation.
As far as silencing goes , the Typhoon SSBN is claimed to be as silent as the Akula are inspite of its size and more maneuverable than the Delta 4 under water.
how old a hull is is irrelevant, it depends on how well maintained it is.
They had ten missiles, how many of them are now usable 4 years on is anybodies guess.
No one disputes that the Typhoon was a great submarine but tht was part of its problem, it was so damn expensive to operate.
sealordlawrenceThere was pressure from West after the end of Cold War to scrap all the Typhoon , the Typhoon was dreaded by West and they wanted to see it go.
Russia then was very weak and Yelsten wanted to oblige and please the west and yes the economic condition was not good for russia to maintain most of its sub.
So some US senator had some amendments which provided US funding to scrap it.
Now since 3 of them is left , one with 10 SLBM , they are now in a better position ( financially & militarily ) to decide if they want to keep the remaining 3 or just scrap it.
But then I guess logistics matters , if they decide to keep , they will end up with 3 class of SSBN , Delta IV , Typhoon and Borei , would be expensive to operate 3 class of SSBN
I would prefer they stay , they are just cute 😀
techinically there are none left, Donskoi is just a trials ship for Bulava, the others are gone almost certainly have no missiles left now.
sealordlawrenceShe’s undergoing tests since 2002 at least – there is more to be tested than the launch system anyway. According to some, she’s got a new processing unit for the sonar, new comms and new command and control systems. Nothing new on the sonar front itself though. The turbines have been somewhat refurbished, I’ve heard. The command post has been redesigned also.
Anyway, these were joint “factory & military” trials. Full combat trials will begin once she’s fitted with all her armament, and the sub will then be declared combat-ready. Quite a long procedure in any case.
The 1st Borei is also set to start sea trials quite soon, no one is waiting for the missiles to be ready first.
I am very unconvinced, if this was the case why have they scrapped three of the class and laid up the other three. it sounds more like she is being kept as a trials ship.
sealordlawrenceA report about the “Dmitry Donskoy” (Typhoon class) undergoing sea trials after a long period of modernisation. It states that it will be armed with 20 x Bulava misiles, so more than the Borei class…..does this mean the other 2 Typhoons will undergo a refit as well ?
Donskoy is the only in service Typhoon, the rest are out of service with their division having been disbanded. I suspect that author of this article simply saw that the Typhoon class can carry 20 missiles and just assumed that that is how many Bulava’s she is equipped to carry.
sealordlawrenceThe more and more I think about C2 the more I think a vessel fitted with final T23 variant systems would be good. Basically a newer hull design with but with the 2087 sonar, Artemis and CAMM. I suppose what i am saying is replace the T23 with another T23 just newer.
As for ABM, LACM etc.
If the RN ever does get that capability it will be through the ABM ASTER that was agreed to at the last NATO summit combined with the existing T45’s and the carriers (despite being less capable than they should be……sorry Jonesey;)) combined with the Tomahawk firing Astute’s should provide all the heavy attack capability required. A move to 155mm guns should inspire development and production of very long range ammunition (I will find the name of some UK projects later) and give a reasonable shore bombardment capability. This is nicely supplemented by the Apaches operating of LPH’s.
Just a few random thoughts and yes I think the RN will end up with something like that, how many is anybodies guess though.
Excellent thread by the way Swerve.:)
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