sealordlawrenceWhat do you suggest instead? Remember that costings should take into account development money already spent, so a new proposal has to be either so much cheaper to buy that it can absorb any development cost, or not involve any development.
The same thing I have always suggested. AW149 and Merlin, that includes AW-149’s or something smaller for navy just minus all the fancy radars and missiles. Future Lynx exists because Westland can export it in its naval variant and for no other reason.
sealordlawrencePersonally, I believe the LCS is under armed especially for its littoral mission. That said, I like you choices except I would go for the ESSM inplace of the VL-Mica.
Problem is that LCS is part of the great USN procurement clusterf**k, there is not a chance in hell that the project is going to produce anywhere near the numbers that have been wet dreamed about in some quarters. Quite simply priority has to be given to getting hulls in the waters and not fitting them out as mean nasty ICBM killing laser shooting uber ships.
The state of future USN surface combatant procurement is so dire that one can only be thankful that the AB program has produced so many ships and that Aegis has allot of life left in it.
sealordlawrencePersonally, I don’t see it as a surprise. Yet, does that translate into no French CVF or no 2nd Carrier period???:confused:
No second carrier period……..or at least for the medium term. That leaves the French navy in a bad way, CdG is good ship on paper but her service record and functionality are woeful.
sealordlawrenceGood, kill it dead. There is no need for future lynx and it is just a symptom of the appalling management that the UK helicopter fleet has received in the last 20 years.
sealordlawrenceI’m well aware of the SWATH design and its quoted seakeeping, but 022 isen’t despite some sources says a SWATH design but a normal wave-piercing catamaran.
But thats basicly irrelevant as we are depating the combat “seakeeping” eg. some boats ability to perform combat missions in bluewater conditions and enviroments. Physical limitations are just one thing, endurance and systemfits are another.
And yeas, hit and run…thats the basic idea of coastal defence FACs dating back to the MBT-days. Like I said, all ye guys who think 022 is somesort of bluewater combatant, give me sources or at least corresponding designs to back it up, disregarding the basic idea of naval warfare isen’t one of those.
You are right. The 022 is a littoral defensive weapons system and nothing else.
sealordlawrencehere’s news coverage
China welcomes Taiwan referendum failure: media
That is not a true referendum on independence. As to why most people did not bother, well that would be because of the Chinese P5 position on the Security Council, you know the one that gives them the veto.
sealordlawrenceThe referendum was held and that failed too.
No there was not.
sealordlawrenceNot really Ma winning by a land slide means anti china sentiment presides in less than half of the population and China scare is much less of importance than the actual everyday lives of the people.
DPP already got the message that holding Taiwan hostage by touting SRBM scare is not going to win it a election. Which mean a more moderate approach to China policy by both sides.
No it means they won the election. Contrary to the fantasies of many there is a very distinct difference between an election and a referendum.
sealordlawrenceCurrent Taiwan president in a very recent meeting with Ma alluded him as being unable to protect sovereignty and accused Ma of selling out to the commies.
Unless DPP somehow wins another election in 4 years (unlikely as they as KMT holds majority in Legislative yuan and all the administrative assets), I don’t see a revival of anti China sentiment.
You just proved my point.
sealordlawrenceNot that you’ve made any attempt to demonstrate any understanding, however superficial, of the current political situation in Taiwan.
The 1995-96 crisis resulted in the election of Lee Teng-hui, when the very objective of Chinese intimidation had been to prevent his election. Lee’s party, the KMT, has now made a 180 degree shift in policy towards a pro-Chinese stance, and returned to power, despite the Tibetan riots that many predicted would influence the recent elections – but obviously didn’t.
The situation today is in no way analogous to 1995-96, in the same way that the ethnically based 2008 Tibetan riots are not a repeat of the widespread protests of 1989. Times have changed.
What was the point of that post, all you have done is post commonly held knowledge that does nothing to support your completely absurd notion that one election changes everything forever.
And I am still waiting for an explanation behind yet another one of your nonsense posts about how the Tigre is pan-European commanche.
sealordlawrenceYou obviously don’t appreciate the politics of Taiwan, or the conflicted process that has brought the KMT full circle from the days of Chiang to the current pro-Chinese position.
I obviously do.
What need is there for a “deterrent” in the face of a friendly governments seeking closer economic ties, potentially culminating in some sort of symbolic reunification. Chiang Kai-shek is just as dead as Mao, in both a literal and figurative political sense. Whether or not a red flag flies over Taipei doesn’t matter in terms of economics, but access to Chinese markets and labor matters a great deal more.
A political settlement with Taiwan would add greatly to Chinese prestige, but any sort of hostilities, however minor, would undermine economic expansion, not to mention the current social and economic stability that keeps the Chinese Communist party secure. China doesn’t want to the invade Taiwan, if only because a conquered Taiwan would be worthless in comparison to the loss of global trade, exports and employment that hostilities of any sort would entail.
Judging that the transitions in Hong Kong and Macao occurred peacefully despite no capacity for serious resistance by either colonial power, deals which were negotiated when China was poorer and the leadership was more dogmatic, the negotiations with Taiwan will be on far more liberal terms. Symbolism is all that is left to argue over now that capitalism has swept away all of the real differences. Someday, politicians on both sides of the Taiwan straits will shake hands, sign a piece of paper and make congratulatory speeches.
So you have forgotten about 1996 already have you.:rolleyes:
sealordlawrenceThe Taiwan scenario disappeared forever this week when Taiwanese elections went overwhelmingly in favor of the pro-Chinese KMT party – despite the media hysteria over the Tibetan riots. Obviously Taiwanese voters were more concern about economics than Tibetan monks.
Stupid comment, one election does not remove an issue forever. Utterly ridiculous notion that shows a gross lack of understanding.
Any Chinese invasion of Taiwan would require an operations of similar if not larger scale to Overlord, there is zero evidence of anything being prepared for such an operation. What there is is a powerful detterent force.
sealordlawrenceThose roles should determine size to an extent (in the post WW2 era anyway). In any case for the most part destroyers seem to be in the 8~12000 ton range compared to frigates in the 3~5000 ton range. Of cource any navy can call their ships whatever the hell they want, but a 2000 ton cruiser would be going against the grain somewhat.
Unfortunately it does not really work that way anymore. The versatility of VLS cells and the minaturisation of radars and other naval equipment has completely detroyed the distinction.
sealordlawrenceYou speak of Limited/unlimited power projection when PLAN is thinking wheter to go on for off-shore or inshore defence of Chinese martime dimensions 😉 Lets not jump too far ahead…(that is for fanboys)
My point was mostly that We shouldn’t nesserically expect that limited Chinese Blue water fleet would automatically mean regional power projection. Currently what I know about PLAN, it seems that they have two parrallel progress going on. Other is to gain valuable experience from such “big navy” things like naval avaition and strategic amphipious operations, (which will have use in distant future, when the choises you raised comes into question) and the other is to make the navy atleast adequatly representative among its regional opponents.
If the grand strategical goal is to be regional/global powerprojection, that its not relevant yet.
The current fleet that is emerging in form of 052B/Cs and 054s as well as new SSNs is mainly to give PLAN changes to survive in modern naval warfare and If we want to use the word “power projection” only Limited Taiwan scennario comes to the question.Really good standing point for todays PLAN is the Type022 FACs which brings focus few good points.
In otherhand, PLAN is still willing to invest into inshore coastal defences, but what makes this class peculiar, its that despite the Large combatants and other services in the PLAN, the Type022 still presents the Soviet model coastal defence thinking. Why? I think becouse these crafts will be the last of the line in PLAN inshore attack vessels. After they are worn out PLAN is to be large enough atleast to keep the martime figthing well beyond Chinese shore line. (similar fashion than in most Western larger fleets)
So the schedule of when the grand-strategical choises of PLAN comes prevailing is IMO when the Type022 class is laid up. The current fleet of DDGs, and FFGs is to give stopgap during this transistion period, and to give experience and forge the PLANs know-how of how to operate in blue water navy, possible even in power projection role
Exactly, you have pretty much laid out the debate there.:)
sealordlawrenceLearning. Main focus on PLAN with the current hulls lifesyckle is to learn and forge PLAN a modern and usable figthing force. What the grand strategy will be, its still too premature to jump into wild conclusions from anything PLAN laids down in next 10 years. These nice crafts along with the new LPD and other oceanic elements are just to bring PLAN into 21st century, nothing that grandiose. Even to operate as creditable force to protect China from oppressive assault from the sea requires the changes that the newest generation of ships present.
Exactly, anyone who knows anything about Chinese military modernisation and the politics behind it knows that it is very much in its infancy.
But some changes in the grand strategy will come, if not in other form, but in transform from soviet model coastal defence navy into western modell blue water fleet is clearly coming into frution. People tend to forget that Blue water navy doesn’t nesserically mean global power projection á la USN.
That was exactly the two positions I laid out.;)
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