old shapeFrom the link above, scroll down the thread. A picture shows the cockpit 90 degrees to the fuse.
It may not be a write off, but some serious rebuild is required.
old shapeThe A400M final assembly line is at an EADS CASA facility. The assembly plant doesn’t talk to the rest?
>>>>No it doesn’t, not at the working end. Contracts were won on the lowest price, with very simple designs. These designs were forced “Down” in order that contractors meet a low price target. The designs are now radically different, with radically different load/FEM/damage requirements. But Airbus Military are not interested in increasing the contract prices. So the supply chain is totally pi55ed off. All the assembly line wants is parts on time, they couldn’t give a hoot about the rest.
EADS CASA makes major components, & if you care to look up the heads of Airbus Military you’ll see that since 2001 it has been run by two successive CASA men who’d previously worked mainly on military transport projects, that Airbus Military is incorporated in Spain – I thought you said you knew this stuff?
>>>>I do know this stuff. “Run by” does not mean run well.Of course the Hercules is cheaper than the A400M. It’s half the size. And half the capacity.
>>>Don’t thrash American level mathematics around, the A400 is a very VERY expensive creature, yes twice the capacity but at least 4 times the price. And that does not include the investment up front.
OK, I’ll capitulate that the Herc is probably not the future answer, but a better thought out replacement for it should have been considered.The FRES requirement to fit C-130 was dropped ages ago. Look at the 3 vehicles shortlisted for the FRES utility vehicle. Boxer, VBCI & Piranha V. All far too heavy for the Herc, but fit in the A400M.
Official link in case you doubt me – http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/CandidatesForNextGenerationOfArmouredVehiclesUnveiled.htm>>>>I do not doubt. When it was quite clear that to overmatch the latest threats, the extra armour needed to put the FRES vehicle “Safe” put the weight up by approx 8 tonnes. This made it too heavy for the Herc yes, conveniently the A400 was around, and a good marketing opportunity to assist A400 was ceased upon. If the If the A400 wasn’t around, the tag would have been made with the C-17. As for dropping the C-130 requirement ages ago, as near as 2006 the IPT and Atkins and MoD were extremely specific that the FRES vehicle must fit into Herc.
Ditto for the other vehicles. C-130 is out of it, as it is for future US AFVs, & those of everyone else.
>>>>Yes, all platforms are indeed growing, but a replacement Large Transport should have been as cheap and simple as possible to design / build.In case you hadn’t noticed, the C-130J has much of the same sort of new stuff that’s in the A400M. Or do you think the RAF should depend on patched-up old C-130s bought secondhand?
>>>>Yep, she’s quite a digital beast. But the digital stuff is fitted into a tried tested successful airframe design.>>>>You clearly love the A400, and whilst I applaud the creation (Or rather the recreation) of European Aerospace jobs I sincerely believe it will not sell beyond the present order book. The public record order book is 192 ish, but the production plans are less than that – so some of the order are only Mou’s.
Let’s hope that beyond this development period there is scope to rethink the A400’s design in terms of produceability and its “Whole Life Cost”, because presently it’s a pig-in-a-poke.
Unfortunately, the EIS A/c is expected to be not significantly different than the present design.
We needed a fat Herc, not a computerised carbon fibre sledgehammer to crack a simple nut.
We both could be right, it could sell like hot cakes and make a fortune or it will sell to the partner nations, where the seedcorn investment could bear fruit on another future project. Past European projects have been a success, but even Airbus civil projects are now somewhat failing on the admin and communications. “Partnering” now means they don’t mind screwing you.
My answers are within the text above.
old shapeSounds as if you’re in the wrong job. Frankly, if I was your employer & read this, I’d start looking for ways to get rid of you, since you’re clearly not interested in the success of the project you’re working on. And I must say it’s odd, if you’re involved in A400M, that you’re unaware of the input to Airbus Military from EADS-CASA (several hundred transports sold to air forces around the world) & other parts of EADS that have done military work.
A new C-130 is not cheap, nor cheap to run, & you can’t mend it in the field with a basic tool kit.
As has been pointed out, the world is full of cargoes which don’t fit in a C-130, & the number is increasing. Why do you think the USAF spent so much on the YC-14 & YC-15? Because even 35 years ago, they were painfully aware that the Hercules was no longer adequate. When that programme was cancelled, it was replaced by the C-17, not C-130J, i.e. they moved up in size, from designs already bigger than C-130 (though smaller than A400M). Attempts to design AFVs to fit inside a Hercules have all been abandoned because the size & weight constraints proved incompatible with the operational needs of the armies that wanted the AFVs.
The world has moved on since the 1950s. The C-130 was an excellent aircraft, one of the best ever, but it’s had its time. Move on . . .
Must take issue. Parts of Eads have done military work, but as you probably know Airbus does not even communicate with other parts of Airbus, so the link from EADS or CASA staff to the A400 staff will be a bit loose, and from what I’ve experienced not at all. I am certainly in the right job, involved does not mean dependant on. I have had 30 years involvement with UK Defence and Aerospace, so I do know the history and the links……and I can certainly tell when a project is not working.
The Herc is no longer adequate because there is a mindset that suggests it is expensive. It’s just that people want new, because new is better…yeah right.
Compared to the A400, the Herc is cheap to buy/run/replace spares/repair.
A re-engined Herc would also satisfy the green pinko’s too.
The only sales of the A400 are to those nations that have invested in the programme. At least it is securing “Some” european jobs, but a lot of the work is sub-conned to the far east.
For a rapid deployment of troops and equipment, the cargoes are still designed to fit the Herc. Even the FRES vehicle is.
There are too many technical advances incorporated into the A400, for the job it is going to do. The military need a workhorse that can be relied upon and abused in the field.
old shapeBecause the military are stupid.
Stupid at drawing up initial requirements, stupid at changing those requirements at the end of the design and development phase, stupid at not future proofing the requirements.
The A400M has alot of composites in it, the whole wing is composites, and its taking Airbus some time to get ontop of it…
Also, Airbus haven’t done propellor aircraft in the past, its taking them a little more time to get a handle on it.
Airbus have not done military work either. They have been very naive about the amount of paperwork involved in a military contract and have thus totally underestimated the cost and duration of this project.
Also, the A400 is a C-130 designed by a committee.
The worlds military has designed it’s vehicles/pallets/everything based on the payload dimensions of the C-130.
The c-130 is cheap, cheap to run, zillions of spares all over the world. It can land on a dime. More to the point, you can treat it like the workhorse that it is and it will kiss you back.
The A400 fits into none of these needs. It is a technology wonderment but the role that such an A/c undertakes means that you need to mend it in the field with a basic tool kit.
I am involved in A400.
old shapeHe “Exited”, which means fell out. The Tonka ejection seat system bangs both crew out if one of them pulls the handle….as is the case for all multi-crew a/c. For the Tonka it’s the Navigator first, by a split second (If it was pilot first, the nav. would collide with him). So, if he did go out with his seat, there must have been a serious malfunction with the ejection system, which is very rare indeed.
Obviously, there is some kind of serious malfunction somewhere.
Condolences to the family and friends of course.
old shapeIIRC, we had a great record of winning the Red Flag events with the Vulcan.
A poster above suggested the V wouldn’t bank over enough to justify wrap round camo.
Well, that stunning piece of hardware could almost go knife edge, and often did. It could climb at an unfeasible angle too (> 45 degrees), but obviously not with a payload.
old shapeI worked there for 18 years and was familiar with the tales of such…………..but I never saw any photographic evidence, which for such an event one would think there would be plenty.
All the metal lamposts in that area were the foldable type, to enable bulb change and general maintenance. I’ve seen such lamposts in other areas of the UK too.
I think it’s an urban myth, probably started to wind up the new starters or apprentices.
old shapeFond memories of Ringway airport in the mid 60’s. British United Air Ferries Carvairs…and Aer Lingus ones. Parked next to Airspeed Ambassadors in the original Dan Air livery.
As for the Carvair, I knew it was a DC4 with a humpgrade from Aviation Traders…..but I didn’t know Freddie Laker owned ATL.
old shapeNobody mentioned the Throat mikes!
I flew as a cadet at RAF Woodvale, then years later I was living in Formby, next door to Woodvale. On the final day of the Chippy squadron at Woodvale (Uni Air Squadron) there was a formation fly round for about 15 minutes. 6 chippies IIRC.
Bulldogs followed the chippy but only seemed to last a year or two. They have some other sort of small trainer there now.
old shapeAre the offices going to be demolished at BAE Systems Chadderton as well as the hangars?
Yes, just the Grade 2 facade of the main entrance is being kept. They might even take that down brick-by-brick and put it somewhere else.
Google Earth still has the site on, for those interested.
old shapeTrue, and don’t forget the myriad of small companies that are not part of the SBAC but are Aerospace companies.
old shapeI worked at Chadderton from 1979 to 96.
A great place to work, with a great history in aviation pioneering.
Sad to see the place go. I believe the facade is being saved, as it is Grade 2 listed, Art Deco.
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