Arthur.

Thank you.

kev35

Ant.

For me it is the people. For without them any airframe would be an insignificant lump of scrap metal. A Spitfire is a beautiful piece of machinery, but that’s all it is until you put it into the context of the people who flew them. Johnson, Doe, ‘Grumpy’ Unwin, Brian Lane, and the countless thousands of of others. A Lancaster is nothing until you consider the air and ground crews. They are inextricably linked.

But to answer your question I would say all of them, or, none of them. It’s sad to see airframes in a state of disrepair or neglect, but it’s not the end of the world. Perhaps I have a different perspective. Let’s say the Lancaster has fallen into disrepair, is the last of her kind and halfway to the smelters. I would look at the airframe and remember her in better days with affection. Much as one does with a relative. My mom died three years ago, but I can’t think of her without smiling. I choose not to remember the bad times when she was very ill, but the best of times. I believe I would feel very much the same about an aircraft.

Don’t think it’s quite the answer expected.

Regards,

kev35

Re: you are one sick ******* kev…

Vortex.

“You are one sick ******* kev….”

Thank you Vortex, however you are only half right. I am sick, I have a condition called acute peripheral diabetic polyneuropathy. I am touched by your concern. As for the legitimacy of my birth? I don’t think my mother (now deceased) would appreciate your insinuations, I knew you would react this way because you are so predictable.

“who told you that Americans are happy about the recent bombings just because it’s not on US soil?”

Be honest you’re all bloody grateful that it didn’t happen in America. Your war against terrorism didn’t start in New York did it? The terrorists apparently were known but not stopped by the authorities in America. Your reaction? Not to check the activities of known terrorists within your own shores or to find out who distributed anthrax within America, but to attack Afghanistan. Then you illegally remove people from their own country and hold them without any legal status whatsoever. Are you surprised that al-Qaeda is striking back? The terrorists need to be stopped but the mixed message America is sending out is not helpful. If these Taleban or al-Qaeda you hold are guilty, as they almost certainly are, then bring the full force of your laws upon them. Send a message.

“We are quite worried and hoped for the best. “

I apologise, obviously Americans are concerned about the current situation. But I still maintain that you would prefer these attacks to take place on foreign soil. It’s only human nature. I suppose we have to hope that Jonesy is right and that intelligence agencies and other assets are making inroads into the terrorist infrastructure.

“This is so sad, this attitude of making bad things up and call them American. Remember, we believe that it’s not if but only when another strike hits here. So, stop your sadistic bs and labeling it as American.”

America is the most powerful nation on earth and has long been a supporter of freedom. No-one can deny that. My point is that I don’t always blindly believe what America does is right. I know what America has done for us in the past, I pay my respects to a Cemetery full of them at least once a year. I know America believes that another strike is inevitable, at the moment though it’s a lot of other places. I’m sure Britain will have her turn soon.

“Jonesy, with resolve a lot can be accomplished and in shorter time. Sure who knows when such a war may end, but anything that’ll end it sooner is better than later.”

That I absoloutely agree with, but your current actions seem to be bringing an end nowhere nearer. It may even be behind the current escalation.

“…and that’s what i’m talking about, there’s should be absolutely no excuse for terrorism. “

I agree.

Vortex, I don’t really care what you say about me, I can take it, if you need to be aggressive and abusive to get your point across that’s okay. But please, don’t bring my family into it.

Regards,

kev35

Along the same lines does anyone know of a retail shop, preferably in the Midlands where I can obtain a copy of the Battle of Britain DVD? I really don’t like using mail order.

Thanks,

kev35

Oh, Steve, what have I started?

“If the question is “should terrorism be stamped on hard” how can anyone disagree with the “American view”?. The method of doing the stamping may be questionable and questioned, but, who would argue that terrorists should be left to persue their aims unchallenged? Who would argue that terrorism is a legitimate means for pursuing political goals? Who would argue that terrorism is “right”.”

I don’t perceive that that terrorism is being stamped on hard. Perhaps the answer to that lies in the allusion you make to special operations which are not public knowledge. As to who would consider terrorism to be right one only has to look at the terrorists, their backers and the ever growing number of people prepared to strap a few pounds of explosive on their backs and die for their cause. They may be wrong, evil, misguided or any other epithet you choose but at the moment their resolve seems strong.

“I think that comparing the actions of national military forces commited to total warfare, in an era prior to precision guided munitions, to terrorists striking at soft-targets because their easy to hit and will cause maximum publicity and outrage is just a little disingenuous.”

Maybe so, but for these terrorists this is their ‘war’. It’s not World War II but it’s about as big as they can make it at the moment. The terrorists could try striking at an Army or Air Force base but would they be effective in their terms? You mention the USS Cole, they managed to hit her where she was but could they ever hope to have done the same at a Naval facility in the US?

“Are you proposing that the spraying of Agent Orange was INTENTIONALLY done to kill Vietnamese civillians?”

Of course not but the end result was the same, except their deaths were slower. They were casualties as soon as they had to leave their land due to the effects of Agent Orange.

“I think that B-52’s unloading on the jungle was a fairly wasteful tactic if it was intended to kill the maximum number of civillians as well – surely carpet bombing Hanoi would have been more efficient if the aim was as you say!.”

Again, read the literature written by those who were there. Every dead Vietnamese was recorded as a Vietcong or NVA. Whether or not the intention was there the statisticians tried to reap the benefits.

“I’d encourage you to read up on the anticipated consequences if Operations OLYMPIC and CORONET (the invasion of the Japanese home islands) had been undertaken. Its tragic how many died in the nuclear attacks, furthermore, the after effects and lingering deaths following on from those weapons have been terrible.”

Yes, of course I am aware. My father and uncle were both being trained to take part in a planned invasion. Absolutely I’m glad those weapons were used. My point was that Vortex couldn’t allude to the efficacy of pinpoint bombing carried out by the Americans without accepting that they were responsible for the two biggest area bombings of the war.

“One question Kev – how many 9/11 scale incidents have occured since the Taleban got booted out of Afghanistan?.”

None of course. But how long will it be before the total deaths from these current incidences reach that of the 11th of September? The happy side effect from America’s point of view is that no more incidents have occurred in the US.

“Now what are they doing? Hitting soft-targets in states that are easy to operate in with a handful of suicide-bombers here or a car-bomb there?. Either this or using people, too stupid or poorly trained to read the shelf-life date on a missile tube, to try and bring down an airliner in a repeat run of tactics used in Rhodesia back in the 70’s!”

But they are being effective still. Flights stopped to Kenya, travel advisories against travel to an increasing number of countries, embassies being closed, a rising death toll. This is evidence that they are far from beaten.

“You can criticise a tangible lack of evidence paraded in front of the global media as a lack of progress if you wish Kev, but, a lot is going on outside of the spotlight which IS having an effect on international terrorism.”

Perhaps more should be made of that, after all we don’t all have a direct link to our country’s intelligence network do we? People only reading of successful terrorist outrages will do nothing to calm nerves. Showing evidence of success against the terrorists might discourage others from following their path.

Regards,

kev35

Re: ..right.

Vortex.

“neglegible success during dark days is nevertheless success versus inaction due to lack of resolves.”

Successfully killing half a dozen terrorists might be considered a success by someone sitting isolated in America. Perhaps the response is this rise in suicide bombings in cities around the world. But this is how America likes to fight its wars, anywhere but it’s own shores.

“As to bombing civilian areas…show me once in recent times, say last 20 years that 100% intent without reasonable doubt that the US military targetted civilians. “

I may concede that point to you, after all, you have enough trouble avoiding bombing friendly forces to worry about civilians. I could remind you that on several occasions in the last twenty years you have managed to hit the wrong country.

“What you have with these terrorists is that its 100% assured that civilians are the intent of their target. When you want Americans to hear you out, you bring such things as now is the time to have such and such (ie, war crime court) while at the same time when you criticize Americans you tend to bring up stuff that’s years ago.”

You and I both know that American’s don’t listen. Selective deafness, hearing only what you want to hear and expecting the rest of the world to hang on your every word. I assume you’re referring to the war crime court that America has refused to sign up to? Presumably this is because America is a law unto itself and can do no wrong. If international law is of the opinion that America is in the wrong then America just ignores the law? A fine example to set.

“but don’t tell me that the RAF wasn’t guilty of attacking entire cities. In fact the RAF is so afraid of strategic bombing in broad day light due to heavy earlier losses that they rather bomb at night and target the ENTIRE city.”

The RAF, or its crews, were not ‘afraid’ of daylight bombing, that is a horrible insinuation. Losses were so high as to be unsustainable, hence the switch. You must remember that this was a small country which had been fighting a war long before the intervention of the US. It had neither the manpower nor the industrial base from which to be able to equip its Air Force in the same manner. Yes, the RAF did target cities, I don’t believe I said that they didn’t.

“So, don’t give me that crap about how the USAAC bombed cities in those days. Go find any WWII documents and you’ll soon realize that often the strategic bombing target lists are very specific for the USAAC (such as a factory) and the end result is a whole block leading up to that factory is destroyed(bombing path), while the RAF’s target list is usually an entire district if not the city.”

They were often very specific for the RAF, but for both, the results were often less satisfactory than hoped for. If you must talk about precision try the Dams raid, the Tirpitz, the Antheor viaduct, Peenemunde, the Philips factory, Amiens, and many others. Don’t think the US forces were involved in any of those.

” As to Vietnam, show me where was there an official intent to target civilians”

The realities of war which you point out are often at odds with officialdom. B-52 strikes hit villages as part of their target zone. The literature shows many patrols after coming under fire from a single sniper round destroyed every village nearby, whether there was evidence to support that action or not. The use of Agent Orange was indiscriminate and directly impinged upon the lives of civilians and soldiers alike.

What I’m trying to get at is that the American attitude of using a sledgehammer to crack a peanut is not working. The peanut just grows in stature and becomes stronger. America, and other countries, have to target the leadership of the terrorist organisations. The footsoldiers are willing and prepared to die. Their leadership has to be struck such a blow that it cannot recover. With America’s intelligence assets and special operations capabilities perhaps it would be better to employ stealth than the sledgehammer.

Regards,

kev35

Re: what’s wrong with you guys?

Vortex.

“you’re still at a stage of deciding what’s right or wrong?”

This is the problem with the American attitude to any world event. There is the wrong view and the American view.

“It is never right to go off with INTENT on bombing innocent civilians. These terroristic acts are with FULL INTENT”

Funny that. Americans have on many occasions attacked civilian targets with intent. During World War Ii didn’t the USAAF carry out a follow up operation to Hamburg after the previous nights bombing by the RAF? Wholesale areas of Vietnam were bombed by B-52’s, other areas sprayed with defoliating agents, I’m sure others can come up with other examples.

“…if they bomb some military installation, ok you can debate on the type of warfare used, but INTENT on civilians? It is never right.”

Please see above. Add incendiary bombing of Tokyo to the list and if you want to go the whole hog how many civilians died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

“Does it even matter? Because of such lack of resolve…this is going to be a long war. “

Now I thought America had declared a war on terrorism. So far you’ve caught a few hundred Taleban, some of whom you treat humanely while others you do not. What else has been achieved? A few suspected al-qaeda were killed by a UAV. Anything else? Is America’s resolve catching those behind Bali, Kenya, Casablanca, Riyadh? Or has there been a significant increase in suicide bombings?

The people behind these bombings must be dealt with but a lot of pontification and little action from America isn’t going to do it is it?

I know you’ll throw Iraq at me. But which war was won there? The war against terrorism? The war to free the Iraqi people? Or the war over WMD’s?

These terrorists are an enemy whos greatest wish is to die for their beliefs. They are almost in a no-lose situation. I don’t know how it can be stopped but spouting about the lack of resolve others while achieving negligible success yourself doesn’t reallyseem helpful, does it?

regards,

kev35

As to the question of stalls, then yes, I do like to see plenty of aviation related stalls but also understand the need for a balance. I think perhaps Cosford had it about right. Craft and other stalls in one of the hangars and the rest of the airfield littered with a plethora of book, model and special interest stalls. I ran out of money well before I ran out of stalls!

Regards,

kev35