Jonesy.

“Elps opinion is as sincere and heartfelt as Keltics why should he be the only one villified and why do you assume he’s trying to silence anyone? In what you wrote you do realise you’re guilty of exactly the same prejudice that you are accusing him of? “

I don’t accept that. Elp, along with PII and Vortex are vehement supporters of the US led action in Iraq. At no time are they prepared to debate the issue or to accept any opposing point of view. They are Americans therefore they have God on their side and are always right. I have not assumed Elp is trying to silence anyone. His exhortation to ‘stop whining…. Get over it’ and PII’s eagerness to kill people as voiced in another thread does no credit to the American people. I am not prejuduced against the American people but that is how people choose to view me on the grounds that I question the justification for the current war in Iraq. BTW why are we calling it a war when no war has been declared?

“Eric simply said this is the nature of war and I actually think he went easy with Keltic – this is a NEW nature of war. War, even a decade ago, was a whole boatload nastier and more horrific than what we’re witnessing today.”

No again. Eric’s language is inflammatory to say the least and I fully admit I’m stupid enough to take the bait and reply. ‘This is a NEW nature of war.’ Yes it is. We are watching it on tv like it was a movie. Some incidents are shown in real time. Other incidents are not revealed at all due to ‘operational constraints.’ Was the last Gulf War any nastier and more horrific than the present one? That remains to be seen. One thing that we can be sure of is this wone will take a lot longer to finish. We can only imagine what casualties will be like over the coming days, weeks or even months.

“Please people start looking at your TV screens without the automatic emotional filters switched on. Analyse what you’re looking at instead of just having an unconscious reaction to it.”

Condescending of you and not like you at all. You are now suggesting that we are unable to analyse what we are being presented on tv and need to be guided. Our supposed ‘unconscious reaction’ to what we see is one of the factors that encourages us to think of ourselves as civilised. One cannot help but have an emotional reaction to what is going on.

“The Red Cross is moving from hospital to hospital checking to see if they have enough medical supplies and are bemoaning the possible psychological damage that the bombing might cause!!! Psychological trauma!!! As if being subject to a regime that executes dissidents after having their wives gang-raped in front of them isn’t traumatic!!!!”

You have a point. But the Red Cross should also be involved in checking on the welfare of the American prisoners and the psychological trauma they are almost certainly suffering. I agree it is to be hoped they are better treated than those captured in the last Gulf War.

“They all look healthy, well dressed and very determined to cash in on the bounty Saddam placed on dead or captured allied personnel to me.”

Human nature, it’s people hedging their bets. Those same people will probably end up greeting the coalition forces with open arms.

“I saw a Brit soldier pat one guy on the back after an inspection as a gesture of thanks and got a friendly reaction. The Iraqi in question seemed quite content with the state of affairs and he was just a normal guy going about his business.”

True, but contrast that with the determined and fluid resistance being encountered in almost every town the coalition forces reach.

“This is after 4 days of the most intensive precision bombing ever performed in history. Ladies and gents what we are seeing is not some shambolic mess its a carefully planned and controlled campaign designed to isolate an oppressive political regime from the citizens it controls and, in the main, it is doing just that.”

Carefully planned and controlled, yes, but with only limited effectiveness. We are not yet able to assess the effectiveness of the bombing in Baghdad. I would imagine it’s pretty accurate compared to what we have seen in the past. Let’s see though whether the military and political ‘head’ has been decapitated. At the moment it doesn’t appear so.

“To have an expectation that this would happen without anyone dying is fairyland. To have the expectation that there would be no accidents or blue-on-blues is fairyland.”

Of course it is fairyland. But you must admit that it is not exactly comforting that so many have died as a result of ‘blue on blue’ incidents or accidents, is it? We are told that everything is high tech, the war will be over in days, minimal casualties, mass surrenders. What we are now seeing is American prisoners and dead, an effective resistance which has caught coalition forces off guard, several journalists dead and missing, some allegedly due to friendly fire. There will obviously be civilian casualties as well. At the moment it seems coalition forces are endeavouring to keep them to a minimum.

“The average UK citizen knows whats going on for good and ill and Blairs popularity has jumped 20% on the strength of what is being reported from Iraq. I don’t quite see what basis you have for your statement?”

I don’t think support for the war has risen. I believe your 20% comes from a natural instinct to back our troops while they are in action. I doubt that if you phrased the question better, eg, “Do you support the war to oust Saddam Hussein?” the answer would still be a considerable no vote. However if you asked whether people were now supporting the war purely because British service personnel were involved and you wanted to support them, the answer would be different. I think the increase in suport is entirely due to the attitude ” Ok, they’re in, let’s get it over and bring them home with minimum casualties.”

Regards,

kev35

Originally posted by ELP
Typical pacifist whinning. Its is a war. Get over it.

Elp.

Are you totally insensitive? Or is it just this usual beligerent crap we get from some of the Americans on this forum? Keltic expresses his heartfelt feelings regarding the war in Iraq and the best you can do is ridicule. It’s that kind of attitude that goes a long way to creating anti-American feeling. We know it’s a war and we know that by its very nature war is horrific. We don’t need you to tell us just how horrific war is, least of all the British, after all it was an RAF Tornado that an American Patriot Battery managed to bring down this morning. The BBC is also carrying a report which implicates US troops in the incident in which three ITN employees are missing.

So, be passionate about your beliefs and allow others to express theirs. Just because you’re American doesn’t guarantee you are right.

Regards,

kev35

Finally, an update.

Before I start can I pass on my sincere thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this thread. By so doing we are ensuring we keep the memory alive of P/O Moxey, Sgt Crabtree and LAC Smith. Sincere thanks also need to go to Doug Cuthbertson who put me on the right track, Geoffrey Negus for identifying the probable crash site and Mark Hood for his efforts in obtaining information from the PRO, and for providing a wealth of detail regarding ballon barrage operations and the role they played in the incident of 7th August 1942. Thanks also to Merlin for his help in the early stages, to Snapper for aiding with the extraction of information from the London Gazette and finally to Moggy, for starting the thread in the first place, for his continued interest and support and his ongoing help in interpreting the navigational implications of that fateful flight.

So, back to the 7th of August 1942. Vickers Wellington 1c of 16 OTU, Upper Heyford was engaged on a night navigation exercise. The crew consisted of P/O John Maura, pilot, P/O Percy Leslie Moxey, navigator, Sgt Crabtree, Wop/Ag, Sgt Saddler, Sgt Russell and LAC Smith who appears to have gone along as a passenger. The aircraft and crew were attached to C flight.

The aircraft had taken off at 2207 hours on the 6th of August 1942. The exercise had been uneventful and had taken the crew to the Isle of Man. Over Douglas thet turned for home at 0030 hours and set course for Worcester. They followed a course of 160 degrees (C) with an ETA at the coast of 0106 hours and ETA Worcester at 0143 hours. Their altitude was 5000 feet and P/O Maura described the weather as quite thick and on consultation with his navigator reduced altitude to 3000 feet at around 0100 hours. As they were still in cloud P/O Maura reduced altitude to 2000 feet after first confirming with P/O Moxey that it was safe to do so. This brought them just below very thick cloud but the visibility remained very poor. At approx 011o hours the navigator requested a QDM from th wireless operator and at approx 0115 hours the air bomber and navigator identified aplace to port as Wolverhampton. The navigator then asked P/O Maura to circle to port while he checked his position. P/O Maura reported that no ballon squeaker was heard by him. This was a device by which ballon barrages emitted a signal which would be picked up by aircraft in the vicinity alerting the crew to the balloon’s presence. He comments that even at 2000 feet they were in intermittent cloud. P/O Maura started his turn at about 0125 hours, the aircraft almost immediately striking balloon cables, followed 30 seconds later by another impact which he believed to be another cable. This was almost certainly the impact of the drogue chute against the cable.

He immediately ordered the crew to bale out to which the navigator replied ‘going’ and saw the air bomber attach his parachute and bale out. He observed two other crew members adjusting their parachutes and rushing aft to bale out. It was at this point that the aircraft hit another ballon cable (the second) and the aircraft became uncontrollable. P/O Maura then proceeded to bale out himself and noted the altitude as 700 feet. He landed safely and reported to the local police. The time was noted as 0136.

Birmingham ballon barrage records record two impacts at 0136 and 0140 hours, the latter entry being from the site closest to the crash. It appears the aircraft came down alongside the canal in the Kingsbury Road area. Certainly within a couple of miles of the airfield and factory at Castle Bromwich.

As we know P/O Moxey, Sgt Crabtree and LAC Smith were killed in the crash. P/O Maura survived both the crash and the war, retiring from the RAF in 1946 with the substantive rank of Flight Lieutenant. There is some conjecture that he may have flown day fighters later in the war. Sgts Saddler and Russell both survived the incident but nothing is known of them subsequently.

And there, for now, our story ends. Unless of course, anyone out there can provide some more information?

Regards,

kev35

Benjamin,

many happy returns of the day. Hope you have an enjoyable day.

regards,

kev35

Hi, Mik.

Originally posted by Mik
Interesting the hammering GEFORCE was given due to his age and the equally strident response in his defence. Surely though nobody suggested he has no right to an opinion, what was debated was his ability to have experienced enough of world events to allow him to formulate an opinion based on current knowledge and historical perspective. That is a valid point. The gentleman in question may indeed be able to do just that, but then again most 18y/o do not.

Is your concept of “enough experience of world events” really a valid point? Many of the men and women now involved in the actions in the Gulf will be between the ages of 18 and 25. I trust you believe that those troops have the experience and emotional maturity to cope with the momentous events they are involved in. Strange then that you should think the average eighteen year old who is against the war does not.

As to historical perspective, Belgium has been occupied twice in the last 100 years and the land fought over fiercely. I would imagine ‘historical perspective’ is ingrained into Geforce and his fellow Belgians.

Regards,

kev35

Originally posted by Ascot223
Thanks, still can’t find G-XXTA an Augusta with the Royal Flight

If it is an Agusta with the Royal Flight, which I believe is now part of 32 Squadron, might it not carry a military serial?

Regards,

kev35

“Kev, arthur, I may well be at the “Stein” and probably would enjoy a beer or two with you, even if we don’t share the same politics, just remember when the chips are down you won’t find a better ally than the US”

Can I just remind you whose troops are on the ground with Americans in Iraq and whose air force and navy are actively involved in operations in the Gulf.

We will probably never agree politically but I wish you luck in whatever it is you have to do.

Regards,

kev35

Courage of conviction?

TTP,

Leaving so soon? It is to be admired that your colleagues now fighting in Iraq hold and display the courage of their Government’s convictions, and do not choose to leave in the face of argument or discord.

Regards,

kev35