Back on Topic – LPDs vs. LSDs
Reviving this thread to continue the discussion about LPDs vs. LSDs from the CVF thread (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92518&page=31). Here’s what triggered our debate:
I won’t derail this topic anymore, but I would point out the a Foudre, being a LSD a-la-“Widbey Island”, make little sense as a LPD, lacking any provision to sustain any troop or vehicle it can deploy ashore.
It’s a worst choice, IMHO.
It’s a huge force multiplier for the Mistrals, providing a huge first amphibious landing force, even well motorized or mechanized, but it makes little or no sense at all if take it alone.
You must be confusing with another ship. 😉 The Foudre class are 100% LPDs, very much in the same class as the Rotterdam/Johann de Witt and Albions, as can be seen below:
– Dock for simultaneous storage of LCMs & heavy vehicles (1,700m2)
– Light/medium vehicle storage (mostly topsides – 1,000m2)
– Hangar for 4 helos (400m2), two-spot helo platform (1,100m2), and aviation fuel for ~120 sorties (215m3)
– 50-bed hospital (500m2)
– Command facilities – these are very cramped and old-fashioned by modern standards, but they do exist. Provision for additional containerized HQ facilities.
– Accommodation for ~400 troops (long-term)
The differences between an LSD (e.g. Whidbey Island or Bay class) & an LPD are a little fuzzy, but AFAIK are generally reckoned to be in the aviation facilities, & the mix between troops & vehicles, not in the ability to sustain whatever it lands. LSDs generally lack hangars or aviation support & are oriented towards troops rather than heavy equipment. Foudre is typical of LPDs in having a hangar, & the ability to support sustained helicopter operations.
Of course, the French have their own classifications. Foudre is a TCD Рtransport de chalands de d̩barquement, & Mistral is a BPC Рb̢timent de projection et de commandement.
Agree on the rest of your post, though. That big dock, & the first wave capability it gives, is very useful.
@H_K
No, I’m not confusing ships and calissifications.
I base my own on U.S. Navy standards, it could be questionable if they are the best or most appropriate, but there is intrinsic logical coherence with them.
By U.S. Navy standards, an LSD is a ship with most of its hull devoted to a very large dock, able to transport and deploy ashore large amounts of landing crafts.
By the same standards, what you save of your LSD’s hull from the dock is part deck space for motorized or mechanized assets, or berthing facilities.
There is almost no room at all for storing facilities, either dry or liquid.
And at the present time, U.S. Navy LSDs are the Widbey Island class ones, whose cutaway is really close to Foudre class cutaway, and related facilities as well.
By the aforementioned standards, is LPD’s standard (Austin class and now San Antonio class) to provide facilities for logistic support, i.e. mainly stores.
This is the rationale dictating a dock’s depth of less than 30 meters for San Antonio class vs. around 100 meters for Widbey Island class
Of course you can sort out of an LSD something resembling an LPD, e.g. you can turn out with sometinhg like an Harpers Ferry, an iteration of Widbey Island with only 30 meters depth dock and plenty of stores builded on the saved room.
But it is something I would think of for a new built ship, like if Marine National discovered their amphibious fleet is severely impaired by the lack of a logistic amphibious ship (and they actually lack that asset) and like to keep R&D costs low modifying the Foudre project the same way U.S. did with Widbey Island, but ways too expensive to refit in an already built ship.
Verbatim,
Well in that case, it’s the USN standards that are rather overly simplistic, because they focus on form (size of well deck) rather than function. By contrast, I believe most NATO navies would agree to a classification based on function:
LPDs: Cover the tactical side of ship-to-shore – this requires an ability to embark and sustain troops, a mix of landing craft and helicopters, some vehicles, a command element, and medical facilities.
LSDs: Cover the logistic side of ship-to-shore , i.e. supporting other amphibs – this focuses much more on cargo, vehicle and/or (especially in the USN) landing craft stowage.
To me this kind of functional classification is much clearer and generally applicable. For example, both the Whidbey Island and Bay class are clearly LSDs, even though the former have a huge dock and the latter have a poststamp-sized one. Similarly, the Albion and Foudre class are both LPDs, even though the former have no hangar (but still can sustain helos, so they’re LPDs) and the latter’s dock is “too big” for a traditional LPD…
I was always confused about LPD vs LSD, now I’m even more so.
I was also under the impression the main difference was in the size of the well dock, LSDs having a smaller well dock but large storage while the LPDs have large well docks but at the expense of storage capacity.
This is how it is in the RN atleast, IIRC the well dock of the Albion able to store up to four LCU Mk 10s while the Bay class’s dock can only support one + a couple of LCVP Mk 5s, but the Bays able to carry far more vehicles than the Albions. I thought this was due to the Albions landing the first wave, so focusing on getting what they have onto the beaches as soon as possible while the Bays simply trickle reinforcments onto the captured beachhead at a much slower rate, but ultimately delivering more equipment.
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