again, the point that really ticked me off is Google implying that I somehow have to come on this forum, just so I can give him the source. I’m not allowed to have a live outside of Internet now?

Maybe the reason several of us have repeatedly asked for your source, not to mention some trace amount of information from your source, is that your original reply smacked of arrogance and ignorance. Why are you so quick to downplay one source when you offer absolutely no evidence of your own?

Go brush up on the South African-Pakistan defense contracts, since it appears you’re not very familiar with them. No one here is diminishing the defense relationship between Pakistan and China, but Pakistan does have other defense suppliers. South Africa is no slouch either when it comes to defense wares, for instance, look at the lineage of the MRAP vehicles in service with the US Army, or their AAMs and munitions.

not a chance raad is south african inspired. According to my sources, it’s based on a dropped Chinese project.

We’re still waiting to hear what your source(s) had to say on the matter.

About those missiles someone photographed at MAKS on Pages 2-3. A China connection?

Date Posted: 29-Aug-2007
Jane’s Defence Weekly – September 05, 2007
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TMC unveils air-to-surface missiles at Moscow air show

Robert Hewson Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons Editor
Moscow

Russia’s Tactical Missiles Corporation (TMC) displayed three new air-to-surface missile (ASM) designs at the Moscow Air Show (MAKS) in late August. The weapons were kept, quite literally, under wraps – covered by tarpaulins – until they had been reviewed by President Putin on the opening day of the show. The three missiles included enhanced versions of the Kh-31 (AS-17 ‘Krypton’) and Kh-58 (AS-11 ‘Kilter’), along with the never-before-seen Kh-38 advanced modular ASM.

The new Kh-31 variant, known as Kh-31AD (the suffix is assessed to be Activnaya Dalnost: active, range), is an extended-range version of Zvezda-Strela’s active-radar guided Kh-31A anti-ship missile. The AD is longer than the 4.7 m Kh-31A. A ‘plug’ added to its mid-section and a lengthened rear motor housing extends the Kh-31AD to more than 5 m in length. The Kh-31AD is understood to be fitted with the same Leninetz-designed U-505 radar seeker as the Kh-31A.

No technical details were provided for the Kh-31AD, but the missile and its performance are believed to be very similar to the Kh-31PMK version revealed by Jane’s in April 2006. Effective range is assessed at around 200 km.
Extended-range versions of the active- and passive-homing Kh-31 missiles (Kh-31A, Kh-31P respectively) have been under development for some time. They have previously been identified by the designations Kh-31AM and Kh-31PM. A TMC official indicated that the Kh-31AD is essentially the same design as the Kh-31AM.

The existence of a corresponding Kh-31PD was not confirmed at MAKS, although the Kh-31PMK – K (Kommerichesikaya) indicating a commercial export programme, but also used to denote China (Kitai) – may already have been delivered to foreign users. The Kh-58UShKE is another export programme and is a variant of the Kh-58 anti-radiation missile apparently modified for compressed carriage in an aircraft’s internal weapons bay. The missile’s designers, Raduga, refused all comment on the weapon – declining even to explain its lengthy Russian designation.

In 2003 the Raduga bureau introduced the Kh-58UShE (Ulucsenaya Shirokopolosnaya Exportnaya – improved, wideband, export). This missile was fitted with a new wideband passive RF seeker under a revised radome. The customer for this variant was believed to be China, with the missile destined to equip the Su-30MKK there. The latest Kh-58UShKE uses the same basic missile design but with folding rear and mainbody fins.

There is clearly no current export market for a Russian-developed internal carriage ASM. Future Russian combat types such as the PAK-FA might be able to carry such a missile – although the Kh-58 is too large to be carried in a tactical fighter’s weapons bay. It is possible that the Kh-58UShKE has been developed for a bomber’s rotary-launcher. It is also conceivable that the weapon has been adapted for container launch, from a ship or ground vehicle – although it appears to remain an exclusively air-launched missile.

The third showing by TMC was the brand new Kh-38ME, a weapon that has been under development for in excess of 10 years and which should serve as the replacement for the Kh-25 (AS-10/AS-12) and even the Kh-29 (AS-14) families. Unlike other missiles in the TMC display, the Kh-28 was shown as a ‘pure’ model and not a solid engineering mock-up (as the Kh-31AD and Kh-58UShKE were).

The Kh-38ME appears to be designed for an electro-optical seeker, with the designation 9B-7738 stencilled on the side. In the past the design has been credited with using an imaging infrared seeker. Its intended seeker supplier is unknown and it is thought that the missile may also have an active-radar seeker option.

The Kh-38ME is the first modern tactical ASM design to emerge from Russia’s manufacturers in more than a decade. Its designation marks it as an export programme and it was suggested at MAKS that India is an interested potential customer.

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Date Posted: 29-Aug-2007
Jane’s Missiles & Rockets – September 01, 2007
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Pakistan tests Hatf 8 air-launched cruise missile
Doug Richardson Editor

Pakistan successfully tested an air-launched cruise missile (ALCM) named Hatf 8 (Ra’ad) on 25 August 2007. The designation ‘Ra’ad’ means ‘Thunder’ in Arabic. Following the flight, President General Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz congratulated the scientists and engineers involved in the project.

Described by Pakistan as having “a range of 350 km for now”, Hatf 8 is intended to provide what were described as “a variety of Pakistan’s air platforms” with a strategic standoff capability against land and sea targets. According to the official Pakistani announcement of the flight, the missile “has a low detection probability due to stealth design and the materials used in its manufacturing”.

The new missile is designed to carry “all types of warheads” and has an accuracy comparable to that of the longer-ranged Hatf 7 Babur cruise missile that was tested for the first time in August 2005. Press reports of the flight have taken the phrase “all types of warheads” to imply that the new missile was designed to carry a nuclear payload.

The nuclear warheads carried by the Hatf 4 and 6 ballistic missiles are believed to weigh 700 kg. The original version of the Hatf 5 (Ghauri) carries a 1,200 kg warhead, but the improved Ghauri missile (possibly known as Ghauri 2) has a 700 kg payload. These figures are heavier than the maximum payload that can be carried by most air-launched cruise missiles, which are typically around 400 kg and account for around 30-40 per cent of the launch weight of a subsonic cruise missile.

The size and weight of the Hatf 7 suggests that Pakistan is developing lighter nuclear warheads. One of the payload options for this Tomahawk ‘look-alike’ is a 450 kg 10-35 kT nuclear warhead. The Pakistan Air Force does not operate any bomber aircraft, having retired its Martin B-57B light bombers in 1985. Its highest-performance attack aircraft are the Dassault Mirage 5, which can carry a maximum ordnance load of four tonnes, and the Lockheed Martin F-16A fighter aircraft, which can manage around nine tonnes.

In practice, the maximum weight of any single weapon is constrained by what a single hardpoint can carry. On the F-16, the heaviest loads can be carried on the two inboard underwing stations, each of which is rated at 2,041 kg for manoeuvring flight at 5.5 g. Unless there are plans to use the Lockheed Martin C-130E/H as a cruise missile carrier, it is likely that the Hatf 8 has been sized for carriage on the inboard underwing stations of the F-16A and the planned F-16C force.

Given that the US has successfully tested its Tomahawk naval cruise missile in the air-launched role, it would been logical for Pakistan to follow the same route by creating an air-launched version of the 1,500 kg Hatf 7. Had this been done, the range of the resulting weapon could have been expected to match the 700 km of the latter missile.

Hatf-8 was indigenously developed, said the official announcement. However, the modest range of the missile raises the possibility that it is a new design developed with the assistance of another country that was unwilling to collaborate on a programme what would breach the range and payload restrictions of the international Missile Technology Control Regime.

In another, separate article on JDW September 12, 2007, again on the Raad, there is mention of the following:

“A senior Western defence analyst in Islamabad said the Raad could be mounted on the JF-17 fighter aircraft jointly being developed by Pakistan and China and the J-10 fighter that Pakistan plans to purchase from China.
The Raad test-launch took place from a Pakistani Dassault Mirage and not a Chinese aircraft, which points to the missile possibly being one of Pakistan’s South African-inspired projects as opposed to a Chinese-derived missile.
The Pakistan air force (PAF) intends to buy 250 JF-17 fighters, while negotiations are continuing for the purchase of up to 40 J-10s. The JF-17 has been jointly produced by China’s Chengdu aircraft industries and Pakistan Aeronautical complex at Kamra in northern Pakistan, while the J-10 has been produced by Chengdu alone.”

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have been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. this site is
making such material available in its effort to advance understanding of
defence, military, world strategic developments, anti-terrorism issues and
tactics, humanitarian, education, democracy, and social justice issues, etc.
We believe this constitutes a ‘fair use’ of any such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and such (and all) material on this site is
distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in
receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.
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Date Posted: 14-Aug-2007
Jane’s Navy International – September 01, 2007
________________________________________
Indian Navy IAC suffers delay in keel laying
Rahul Bedi

The keel laying of the Indian Navy’s Project 71 Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) has been delayed by at least a year, pushing delivery from 2011-12 to 2015 or beyond. Assembly of the 37,500-ton carrier – also known as the Air Defence Ship – was scheduled to start in October 2007 at the state-owned Cochin Shipyard.

But senior naval officers said the programme has been hit by material shortages and technical glitches caused by India’s inexperience in undertaking such an ambitious project. They warned the problems would also “substantially increase” the IAC’s build cost from the INR32.61 billion (USD802.7 million) sanctioned by the government.

Although the first steel was cut in April 2005, construction of component parts did not start until November 2006 because of delays in acquiring 20,000 tons of special quality steel.

This hold-up was exacerbated by impediments in obtaining 1,000 tons of bulb bars (steel stiffeners), which were eventually imported from Russia.
An Indian Navy officer said: “More problems may emerge in future as we are on a learning curve.”

Director General of Naval Design, Rear Admiral Mohinder Kumar Badhwar, told Jane’s in November 2006 that after building 120 of 800 hull blocks the IAC’s keel would be laid a year later. The ship would be launched by 2010, he declared at the time.

News of delays in the carrier’s commissioning followed similar problems with the 45,400-ton Kiev-class carrier Vikramaditya, which is undergoing refurbishment at Russia’s Sevmash yard. Completion of the former Admiral Gorshkov has been postponed by three years to 2011.

According to the Jane’s Missile and Rockets article on the vehicle, the author speculates that it’s either for the extended range DF-31A or rumored DF-41.

China develops Stirling AIP technology for submarines

China is believed to… (snip)

[Jane’s Navy International – first posted to http://jni.janes.com – 22 March 2007]

Unicorn

It was a very boring article, most of it was filler. They were just quoting an official report made by the Science and Technology Publication, and have good reason to believe that the first Yuan class SSK was equipped with a Stirling AIP system. It was first developed in 1998 by the No. 711 Institute- a production model AIP system was trial tested in 2002? with over 20,000 hours put on it.

ANE’S DEFENCE WEEKLY – APRIL 04, 2007
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Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed: Pakistan’s Chief of Air Staff
Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent
Islamabad

‘We want an avionics package of our own choice on the J-10’
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is undergoing a transition, positioning itself to acquire some of the latest versions of the US-built F-16 multirole fighter aircraft while increasing its reliance on China as a key supplier of hardware through the induction of the JF-17 ‘Thunder’ fighter and future plans to acquire the J-10 fighter aircraft. Pakistan’s reliance on China reflects something of a fail-safe philosophy following Islamabad’s experience of sanctions imposed on the country in the 1990s.

Against this background, PAF Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed aims to maintain his fighter fleet at a strength of 400 aircraft, including the induction of new aircraft from China and the US.
“We might end up buying another high-tech aircraft from the Chinese; the J-10 is something we’re looking at along with the JF-17, which will in fact form the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force in the future,” said ACM Ahmed. The PAF has received its first two JF-17s and these flew at the country’s Resolution Day ceremony on 23 March in Islamabad. The service expects to receive a total of eight or nine JF-17s by the end of this year, although formal induction into the PAF will begin in just under two years. ACM Ahmed said the PAF had increased its initial target of buying 150 JF-17s to acquiring up to 250 aircraft. The future development of the JF-17 will allow Pakistan to induct its own choice of avionics and weapons already in stock.

“The shape of the JF-17 you see today is slightly different from the first prototype. We have added aerodynamic variations to make it more versatile and more manoeuvrable. We now hope that this particular shape will reflect the final configuration and we’ll add the other capabilities of the aircraft,” said ACM Ahmed. The JF-17 programme has not been without controversy, mainly surrounding the status of the aircraft’s Russian-built RD-93 engine. A number of reports during the past three years claimed that Russia had not approved the re-export of the RD-93 engines from China to a third country – in this case Pakistan. The arrival of the two JF-17s equipped with the RD-93 engines has, however, confirmed what Western analysts are beginning to understand: that the Russians may have given verbal agreement to the re-export without issuing formal licences. According to Western defence analysts, the transaction may have been conducted in this manner as Russia is reluctant to annoy India, with which it has had a long-term partnership in defence sales. India, the analysts argue, has quietly lobbied to block the engine sale as a way of disrupting supplies to Pakistan.

“Frankly, the engine issue is between the Russians and the Chinese. We haven’t contracted with the Russians on this so the deal is between Russia and China and we have no issues related to this,” said ACM Ahmed, adding that “there have been efforts to impede progress by creating some road blocks in this particular path, but I don’t think they will work”. For the moment, the ACM is content with plans to buy a mix of new F-16 Block 50/52 C/Ds (an initial 18 and an option for an additional 18) and some 26 older F-16A/B models, under an agreement with Washington that gives Pakistan the status of a non-NATO US ally. This effectively means that Pakistan can be supplied with excess defence equipment where there is no cost involved for the platform but Islamabad is required to pay for upgrades.

The acquisition of the F-16A/B models has recently been the subject of some controversy. While the US Air Force is willing to release 12 of its older F-16s, the US Navy has refused to release up to 14 aircraft designated for Pakistan. ACM Ahmed said this could change the number of used F-16s that Pakistan plans to purchase, but the plan to buy a mix of new and used F-16s remained on track. “I am quite hopeful that the US Air Force will be able to release the 12 aircraft but we are not sure of the US Navy – we are working with them but we are not sure if they will release those aircraft for us,” he said. “If they don’t, the US Air Force will probably look at other aircraft in their inventory. They have a large number of A/Bs which could be made available.”

For the future, the PAF is positioning itself to buy up to two squadrons of Chinese J-10 fighters as it seeks to diversify its inventory of top-of-the-range aircraft. ACM Ahmed said negotiations for the purchase have begun, with the PAF outlining its preference for avionics and weapon systems. “We want an avionics package of our own choice on the J-10. The kind of weaponry and various other pods and electronic warfare suites [the aircraft will carry] is another area [under discussion],” he said.

Additionally, the PAF has been in negotiations with Beijing for the future purchase of Chinese-built airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft. While declining to specify which specific Chinese AEW is under consideration, ACM Ahmed noted: “We have tested and evaluated [the AEW aircraft] and [found it to be] fairly good, but there are areas where we definitely want improvement, both in the platform and radar.”