JFC FullerYes, I am talking about Lord Jim’s list. It beats the hell out of anything the RN can put out, even lacking a few available assets like an extra Sierra II, and other things I can’t pick off the top of my head and I am not looking at his post again. . .
At only 7 attack submarine patrols a year it certainly isnt and the surface fleet simply does not compare.
HMS Daring (without its anti-ship missiles?!) vs let’s see: Kirov, Kuznetsov, and Oscar IIs armed with Shipwrecks, the Slava with Vulkans/Sandboxes, yes – I wonder who is outgunned?
You mean you wonder who is going to have difficulty targeting all those 20 year old missiles that the RN has spent the same timeframe preparing to defeat?
Then add in all of the Moskit carrying vessels, which can RELATIVELY easily fend off any Harpoon attack.
How many Moskit vessels exactly? I suggest you re-check that list, and they still fall into the above category.
Yes, then you can add in the Udaloys, one of which is Moskit armed, the others which are basically large ASuW frigates . . .
Yes, 4 ASW Frigates.
Oh right, then we add in the large complement of nuclear and conventional attack subs. . .
See above, 7 patrols a year is not scary.
JFC FullerYes, that list itself, of active units, is enough to make the RN look pretty mediocre in comparison.
No its not as the list is accurate and dies not actual define activity. Lord Jim’s list is far closer to reality.
JFC FullerThe followign units are currently shown as active with the Russian Northern Fleet;
Surface Units – 21
Cruisers/Carriers [3]
1 Kuznetsov CVN
1 Kirov CGN
1 Slava CG
Destroyers [5]
2 Sovremennyy DDG
2 Udaloy DDG
1 Udaloy II DDG
Frigates [0]
Corvettes [13]
4 Grisha II FFL
4 Grisha IV FFL
2 Nanuncka 1 FSG
2 Nanuncka III FSG
1 Nanuncka IV FSG
Submarines – 21
SSBN [7]
4 Delta IV SSBN
3 Typhoon SSBN
SSGN [2]
2 Oscar II SSGN
SSN [6]
6 Akula SSN
1 Sierra I SSN
1 Sierra II SSN
4 Victor III SSN
SSK [6]
5 Kilo SSK
1 Sarov SSK
Aircraft
The Northern Fleet with the exception of the Kuznetsov Air Wing, currently has no offensive aircraft under its direct control. The only 2 remaining Anti-Ship Regiments of TU-22M2/3 [45 ac] are those stationed in the Far East as part of the Pacific Fleet. No ASW aircraft are under its command though it can utilise the Bear/May Regiment at Ostrov (Pskov) which also serves the Baltic fleet.As I am sure you can see the largest Soviet Naval Force currently available is truely a shadow of its former self and is only slightly larger than the RN but far less flexible/ deployable than the RN, especially when the Light Frigates/Corvettes as these are only of use in littorial defensive operations and cannot be easily deployed.
More obviouly this force would be totally unable to handle the US Atlantic Fleet with more units stationed at Norfolk than the whole Northern Fleet alone.
In a wartime situation there is little or no chance of the Russian Navy inflicting serious damage on a CBG. If it went on the offensive and try to enter the Atlantic it would be engaged by numerous NATO assets as well as the USN. If it stayed defensive then it playes no real role and can be ignored It cannot be effectively rienforced by any other fleets during wartime either. Therefore the only way a Carrier is going to be attacked and sunk is a surprise Day one attack and even then this would be highly unlikely.
This list is closer to the truth although it has its flaws, for a start the 3 Typhoons are now in reserve. What is the original source?
JFC FullerAre you serious sealordlawrence? You are really just lying out of your rear end here. The assets that are active have been overhauled, or at least 90% of them, to some extent. Repairs have been going on steadily since around 2002!
The assets listed are the 100% operational ones.
If we included reserve/in-repair units you can add about a dozen Victor III boats to that list, Nakhimov, 2 more Sovs, 2 more Udaloys, more Kilos, and god knows that other smaller vessels that are roughly as well “armed” as all those RN Frigates that couldn’t scratch a well defended asset if their life depended on it.
No, they are just ships that happen to be in service, not that are operationally available at any sort of readiness.
JFC FullerNo, everything listed is overhauled and active.
The list of reserve and in-repair units of just the Northern Fleet makes the RN look like a green water navy.
It does not mean it is overhauled, simply that there is some sort of crew availbale for it. You need to stop looking at hull numbers and paper capabilities and start looking at sea days and availability.
JFC FullerThat would be everything that Echo listed, considering all those assets outgun/outrange the RN’s offensive weapons systems to many degrees.
Whilst completely ignoring the appalling level of availability that these assets have.
JFC FullerNo, or we’d know about it too, from all of the whining from the US and the UK about it.
There is no need for the US and UK to whine as they have to nothing to worry about from Russia, it is simply not a threat, or even that relevent on the world stage. China and India on the other hand…………..
JFC FullerWhat are they going to be doing at sea that is newsworthy?
Do you have information on their daily whereabouts emailed to your Blackberry?
This is all available in the open source if you care to look for it.
The US for the first time detected Russian subs off of their coast in 10 years, great job there, being the US’s backyard.
If an Oscar II goes out, no one is going to know about it except the Russian naval staff.
Yes they are.
JFC FullerNow what is the RN going to deploy?
The Type 45 is about the only “armed” surface vessel in the entire fleet!
I assume that you mean other than the entire frigate fleet?:rolleyes:
You clearly do not understand the term deployable, just because a vessel exists it does not mean that it can put to sea and actually function as a warship. This is why I raised the issue of sea days.
JFC FullerThe notion that the Russian navy is more capable than the RN is hilarious, it is ridiculous in the extreme.
The Russian navy barely goes anywhere without an ocean going tug,
Its ships have a habit of catching fire, breaking down or just sinking; hence the tug.
And the number of sea days put in is pathetic; there were just 7 nuclear submarine patrols in 2008.
How many times a year do the vaunted Kirov’s make it to sea? or the Oscars? How often is there a Russian carrier at sea?
JFC FullerSee above. Also, I’m not aware of any exercises that involved Turkish/Greek SSKs hunting 4th gen SSNs in those waters, so I’m not sure where you got that they are “well versed in operating in that scenario.”
I never said they were well versed in hunting SSN’s, I said they were well versed to operating in the littoral space where they technically excel in a way that SSN’s do not which is the point that everyone here has been making but that you have been ignoring in your rush to pick a fight with Jonesey.
JFC FullerLocating a CBG is not hard when the CBG becomes a problem, and if the CBG is not a problem, it’s not worrying anyone.
See above.
Wrong: Just the presence of the CBG will shut down shipping and cause severe economic degredation; this has already been discussed. The strategic mobility will allow it to strike when it chooses and then relocate, again this has already been discussed. Essentially the opponent may not know where the CBG is until after it has destroyed a large tract of local infrsatructure by which time it will already be on the move.
The USSR was overkill for conventional deterrence. What Russia or even China have now will keep everyone including the USN away unless the US is directly threatened in some extreme manner.
Only in a fantasy land.
Hahah 12 CBGs all in 1 spot? Nice way to get it all nuked.
I’d suspect any operation the US would launch would never have more than 3-5 carriers, due to some being in maintenance and some being on duty somewhere else.
This has also been discussed already, if the US faced down Russia in such a scenario it would mobilize everything including the reserve fleet and focus them on Russia, a dozen is entirely plausible and that is before we even get to the amphibious flat tops with F-35B’s that we will see in a few years.
I never said anything about one place, thats why Russia has three fleet organisations with access to the open seas, and as the ice cap continues to melt it will become even more vulnerable as operations in the far North become easier.
Unless you think the entire Russian Navy or Chinese Navy will be defending one coastline too
I never said that, but having run to hide in its ports the USN will have the advantage of strategic mobility that Russia with its three geographically seperated fleets can only dream of.
JFC FullerOne way mission is unlikely for a heavy bomber like a Backfire. If it is armed with the Kh-22M missiles it can engage the CBG from 400KM out, or even more with the Kh-32, but the exact new range of this missile is classified.
The CAPs of the carrier group will have an issue finding the Backfire attack, unless a Hawkeye is emitting all of the place, or the Burke’s SPY’s are operating at full power, which will give the CBG’s position away really quickly to patrolling A-50s or Tu-142Ms.
Still not solved the problem of locating the CBG in the first place in order to launch this little exercise.
Once the missiles are launched, the Backfires can turn and easily outrun any F-18E trying to chase them.
Again, one has to find the CBG first and then get the corrdinates to the missile.
6-8, the real number is unknown. Overhauls have been ongoing pretty intensely over the last 6 years though, so you may expect a few to be in repair from the 9 total.
That still leaves out the Victor IIIs, Akulas, and Sierra II class boats, and the large number of Kilos subs, which are excellent for defensive ops.
A shadow of what the Soviet Union could deploy and with the very low number of Sea Days put in by Russian crews they are now anything but proficient compared to their western counterparts.
Russians could muster more than 50 Backfires, but that would be overkill for 1 CBG. Depending on how close the CBG gets, you may even get to deploy tactical bombers and attack boats armed with Moskits.
Except in such a scenario we are talking about almost a dozen CBG’s and with the ability of the carriers aircraft and its escorts to intercept multiple incoming missiles you will be lucky if 50 is enough for one carrier. Remember a Tico can keep at least 48 AD missiles airborne at anyone time.
JFC FullerThe outlook for the RN is not determined by how many ships it has or what capabilities it does not have, as with every other Navy in the world it is determined by two simple factors:
1) The UKs maritime security: This could not be better, the UK has one of the closest alliances in history to the country that currently has global martime hegemony, so no worries here and the RN is doing very well indeed.
2) Capacity to undertake Foreign Policy activities beyond the basic requirements of national maritime security: Under the 1998 SDR and the supporting foreign policy ideas there are some concerns, notably in the loss of surface combattants but the amphibious fleet is still the second best in the world, the Astutes are a fantastic power projection asset and the CVFs will add to that. BIG BUT: This only stands until the next SDR after which a reevaluation will be required.
JFC FullerYou heard it here first, folks! Jonesy knows for a fact that a hypothetical Russian forth gen SSN that’s not yet even built will get “murdered” by Turkish and Greek SSKs.
Why are you posting here and not making millions off the stock markets?
Seriously? Do you actually know what the waters in that area are like? Shallow and confined, the idea hunting ground for SSK’s, especially ones well versed in operating in that scenario. No SSN’s of any ilk would stand much of a chance trying to make a transit from the Black Sea to the Med in a hostiel scenario.
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