Speaking of Voting, the only country in the world to my knowledge that people have the most power when it comes to voting is Finland, which i consider a direct democracy. Where people directly vote on issues rather than vote for some one to go vote for them.

As for China, the way their voting system works is people can only vote for the lowest level, then that lowest level of party members vote for the next highest, then that next level vote for the next highest and so forth and so forth. The top guys are only voted by the next level below. I’m guessing this is the USSR way too, could anyone who knows more about the USSR’s voting system clarify please?

Yeah that’s true about Communism in China, alot of it’s systems and such were based on ideals that were set up by the Manchu Qing Dynasty yes?

Personally I think China’s challenge isn’t anything about speech rights or so forth, but rather the big gap of income between the urban and rural populations, when I was there, the Urban populations seemed to be living lives comparable to the west, while the Rural areas ranged from just decent to subsistance levels.

I personally believe that a large middle class is key to stability and content in any nation, and if the gap in China between the two widens, it could spell future instability and conflict. Also China’s state owned companies are in need of much modernization to compete with private companies.

i believe that once China’s gap gets reduced and a larger middle urban class begin appearing, and state owned companies can compete with private owned companies, then i believe it’s pluralistic system of gov’t will change more towards capitalist or socialist.

Originally posted by TTP
Plawolf,

Communism wasn’t really so bad??? Is that why all my Cuban friends who swam through shark-infested waters to flee Cuba left?, or why the East Germans built a WALL to keep their population from fleeing, or why North Korea is a backward, nation , left to try and blackmail the US to get money to feed their starving people, and I could list many many more, You are brainwashed to a degree that is hard to believe, though weren’t you the guy who said in another post that China wasn’t responsible for the deaths of millions under the purges, it was Mao’s fault???????????????? just look at the world around you the thruth is staring you in the face.

I’ve explained in another post what Communism is, and if you’ve read some of Karl Marx’s books you will learn that Cuba and North Korea are NOT communist countries and are Authoritarian countries! It is also not Marx’s intention to have Russia, China, Cuba, etc to become Communist. Why are Cuba and North Korea Authoritarian and not Communist? Because they still have the same leaders (and in North Korea’s case it’s a family rule) who refuse to give up power and will get rid of anyone who challenges their power. East Germany is a different matter, and at the time, given that the only major Communist country out there was Stalin’s USSR which was also run in an authoritarian manner, and a very brutal one at that, one would speculate that East Germany would also be run in the same way, and of course any sane mind would run. Fortunately East Germany was NOT run like a Stalinist state, and had the strongest economy out of all the Warpac states.

Also it is Mao’s fault for the deaths of millions of Chinese.. he was the on who issued those two policies that caused the deaths even against those in the party that advised against it. Mao was a good speaker and guerilla fighter but he was no politician and made many flawed policies. I will also tell you how so many million died.

1. The Great Leap Foward called for an increase of production, primarily in steal and food production

2. Everyone was required to live in communes and workload was shared and quota’s were given, those who reached quota’s were rewarded

3. at first production went up and things were okay, but when quota’s began rising after seeing how well they were.. people began massing each others goods to meet those quota’s. For example say the quota is the production of 10 tons of wheat. Town A can only make 5 tons max, and Town B can only make 5 tons max.. so when an official comes to check out if the town made the quota.. Town A would ask Town B to borrow their 5 tons, so when the officials came down, they’d think Town A is capable of reaching 10 tons. Then Town A gives their share to Town B in return, and the officials will think Town B was capable of doing that all by itself. This resulted in a domino effect and quota’s were raised at astronomical rates which caused many towns completely unable to produce enough for the quotas and themselves.

4. When the government took the products, particularly food, they tend to store it and did nothing.. however those food that are stored would eventually rot away, thus it was a waste of alot of food while many starved and resulted to eating dirt and grass (this is where much of the deaths came in).

After Mao and other Maoists members such as Liu Shao Qi, etc lost their powers and were replaced by reformists such as Deng Xiao Ping and Zhou En Lai, they did away with such policies because they only did damage to their country and did not benefit much.

China today is much different than when it was under Mao. And I encourage you and Vortex as well to take a visit one day. I once had a very negative view of China, and infact I only went to visit China solely to visit a friend who moved there from the states to do business there, China was one of the last places I wanted to go. But when I got there it was much different than what I thought it would be.

It’s funny how a person can claim China is backwards when not having been there, and when a person from China says something positive, he or she is discredited because he is from there.

Mixtec: The effects of the new deal in undermining the popularity of the socialist parties in the US had a tremendous affect, and by 1940 they had few supporters. This alone helped avoid american voters from voting in a socialist party to lead the US while the economy was beginnign to recover. WW2 simply accelerated that recovery

Vortex: as for the 99% thing, well with you I can’t tell whether you’re being literal or not 🙂 And as for the protests I saw.. well I did state one was a nude fur protest, and the other was a mass rally with Chinese Muslims. I don’t know what that rally was about, I do admit, but if it’s consisting mostly of one group of people and they’re marching by the capital, then it probably means they’ve got something to say to the government on minority policies (in China, Muslims are treated more like a minority than religion).

As for the Chinese rule on religion, well the rules i posted above are pretty straight foward, if you keep religion to yourself than nothing will happen. And yes it is vague on what they consider threatening..but I did state that anything with a physical political head. This can directly be applied to Tibetan Buddhism where the Dalai Lama is not only the religious leader, but he once too was the political leader of Tibet and his past requests did involve some political power unto him, and when China feels that a religion has political motives, then they get uneasy. Other religions include Catholics, where there is a Pope, but this is a bit more relaxed in comparison to the Dalai Lama. (Catholicism is one of the five religions that the PRC government officially recognizes). The PRC fears Falun Gong because they regard it’s leader, Li HongZhi, is the physical “head” of the group and claims himself to be a god.

you also brought up the PRC’s Judicial system.. I’m going to have to inform you about the background of the PRC’s judicial system.. in China in general, they’ve hardly ever used lawyers, even before the days of PRC and KMT.. if there was a dispute of somesort, it would be solved by guild masters, landlords, etc. This went on even until the PRC’s time, and even today there are few lawyers.. Anyone brought into the PRC’s courts will be hindered because there’s a lack of lawyers in general to defend the person, and appears to be a lack of interest in adopting the western style of judicial system.

Also tell me more about that person who was jailed several years ago that you brought up.

Re: ..

Originally posted by Vortex
plawolf…what part of my english don’t you understand? Go back to China, demonstrate against the PRC and let’s see how proud of the current government in China you are. As to education level, sorry Mr. Genius, maybe your arrogance of so much “education” you have is the “problem”. Mao lied to his people and they basically got used and abused. Had it not for the opening up of China in the last 20 years people there will still be 99% peasants. The fact is you can’t say anything against your government inside China. I dare you to do it. I can do it in the US…tell me about freedom again? KMT in the past is no better than the CCP but that doesn’t say anything about ROC. Mind you that CCP started from the left wing of the KMT and were part of the ROC process. As to legitimacy, is there anything signed about the defeat of the ROC? ROC doesn’t have to claim the bulk of China, but they certainly can claim Taiwan which PRC have no control what so ever over that. You’re claiming against that? What’s even more annoying to the PRC is that Taiwan is now fully democratic and that gotta hurt some of those old man’s egos…

Well Like I’ve posted earlier, the issue on free speech was on and off during Mao era, but like how you mentioned that the last 20 years China opened up, the regulations on speech against the government has lessened. It’s not totally free, and I’ve pointed out and witnessed some demonstrations there around the capital. I also think the 99% value of China being peasants is a bit exaggerated.

Originally posted by TTP
Plawolf,

Heres a thought, lets combine the benefits of capitalism, with a minimum “safety net” of governmental benefits for those who fall through the cracks, and as far as your theory that people need an ideology, then lets add freedom of religion. This is essentially what we have here in the US.
The big political debate in the US is between the democrats who believe the government should provide more benfits to the people, at much higher taxation, and the republicans who believe that the government should provide the minimum amount of benefits to insure nobody is sleeping on the street, at much lower taxation, and it then becomes the individual citizens responsibility to provide for their own needs. This individual responsibility is the crux of our brand of democracy! Myself and a majority of Americans DONT WANT HE GOVERNMENT INVOLVED IN OUR LIVES, who knows better what my family wants or needs, Me or some bureucrat in Washington DC? I can spend and invest my money in ways that I predict will benefit me! Governmental involvement in health care, retirement, employment and other facets of life ALWAYS results in an inefficient costly product or service, and most Americans acknowledge this. Of course their are areas where only a government can accomplish things, such as defence, but for the most part services left to the private sector provide a better product at a cheaper price.

Your theory that most nations are heading towards communism because they are embracing many socialist policies has a ring of truth to it. I personally believe that the US has excelled and will continue to be sucessful is due to the fact that we embrace the concept of individual responsibility for ones life, To a communist this may sound perverse, but if every citizen in China were pursuing his own individual goals, doing his best to provide the best life for his family then collectively the entire society has to benefit. Some people may fall through the cracks, and that is a good place for government to step in. The proof is all around us, it works, look at the difference btween North and South Korea, East and Western Europe…less government is better!!

If it wasn’t for FDR, the US’s Capitalism would’ve caved into itself and various socialist parties and other parties would’ve became popular. I believe there needs to be some government control of job creation and regulation of trade, with out these two the gap between lower income class and the elite high income class will widen and there’s going to be alot of discontent between the two. Socialism or Communism doesn’t necessarily have to be the answer, but a capitalist country where the government does exercise some control over trade regulations and job creation is necessary to maintain a large middle class which I believe is key to a country’s stability.

As for religion, well this is the official current religion rules in China
For Minorities it is okay for them to be religious as long as their religion is not lead by a political head. meaning Taosim is Okay, Christianity is okay as they don’t have a physical leader, while Tibetan form of Buddhism is sketchy as the Dalai Lama is not only a religious leader, but also was a political leader.

As for religion for the Han Majority here’s the “8-piont policy on internal religion” summed up

1. citizens above 18 can be religious, however believers and non believers shouldn’t interfere with each others business or discriminate against each other.

2. Those under 18 cannot be taught religion, but it is okay if they want to believe on their own free will

3. religious believers are under protection of the government as long as they observe all laws and principles of the gov’t. It is forbidden to defraud for money, endanger peoples health, and use public property to set up a church

4. It is forbidden to restore religious prerogatives and systems of repression and exploitation which have already been abolished

5. Anyone who acts against the above regulations will be re-educated, if the offence is serious, he/she shall be punished severely

6. CCP members are forbidden to have religious beliefs (although minorities who want to be in the party, that’s a case by case issue). If a member already is religious, he/she has to renounce it. members should not use authority of office to promote religious activities

7. regarding people within religiosu circiles, the gov’t is carryign out a policy to unite, educate and reform them. The gov’t will unite believers who’ve contributed to the party’s general line for the present new era and the 4 modernizations. Those who are progressive and do not obstruct the development of production will be looked up on as our friends.

8. The masses will be mobilized to relentlessly crackdown on class enemies who are doing counter revolutionary activities under the guise of religion Then the vigilance of the believers will be heightened. They will understand the innate character of religion, and the proletarian dictatorship will be consolidated.

the PRC also has policies on External religion as well, the reason why China is a bit more stricter towards Christianity is due to past instances in history where Western countries used the Church as methods of spying and so forth. The PRC is also stricter towards Islam because the Koran is not only a book of religion and philosophy, but it is also a book of laws.

Also its a general rule in the PRC to keep religion to yourself and permission is needed to reproduce religous brooks. But It does not mean you cannot be religious.

Originally posted by TTP
Seahawk,

To quote You’ Modern western imperialism spreads suffering to the third world, to the benefit of themselves etetc etc’

What an extreme rascist view of the third world!!! First show some proof of “western imperialism” in the last 50 years that cause so much suffering in Africa South America,
Concerning your racsim, The fact that you believe that a small group of western countries control and manipulate the vast majority of the worlds population has to be based on the premise that non-western peoples are not capable or intelligent enough to control their own destinies, even in thier own nations.

I don’t think Seahawk is trying to sound racist here, but as for “Western Imperialism” and Africa, alot of problems that have appeared nowadays are due to the boundaries re-drawn in Africa where some tribes were split across two different countries, and other tribes who hate each other were put into the same country, and other tribes were given support to dominate over another tribe.

Nigeria is an example where western companies (and in this case it’s Shell) wants access to Nigerian oil, and they get it, but they don’t hire much if any locals, and the country hardly benefits and instead gets their resources drained.

Originally posted by Rabie
Err no

The new EU with 10 eastern bloc and med islands takes up to 450 million – that without a lot of eastern European countries

But your point is that in a nation of 1.25 billion , 100 million is very little

TTP – your accusations that it communism don’t work and show your understanding of china up a bit mate 😉 – they are communist in name only – they are really a dictatorship trying to keep order with no real political idea of where they are going. Your call for democracy is equally laughable as your own countrymen in their recent “nation building” exercise show us that true democracy is a bad thing and they won’t risk it

Liberal reprehensive democracy that doesn’t produce a democratic result is what you want – what china want and PLA wolf has pointed out is to avoid fragmentation and a return to the state they were in pre 1949 for about 150 of war lords, etc, etc – which under stable in such large nation is a justifiable fear

rabie 😉

I wasn’t thinking of the EU as a whole, but rather the individual states that are part of the EU, and the most populous country within the EU is Germany with 80+ million. but anyways that small urban percentage is what makes a majority of China’s $6 trillion GDP. Although it appears that the per capita GDP is lower than that of many western european countries, it is an average.. currently the gap in per capita income between Rural folks and Urban people is 1:3, this gap I think will cause future trouble and I think it’s necessary for China to start creating a large middle class. But regardless, China has kept the poverty level to only 10% of the population which isn’t half bad at all (the percentage is comparable to many western countries)..unfortunately 10% of 1.2 billion is 120 million, which too is larger than any single european country. Also it seems the Urban population is actually 455 million ..the size of the Eu countries :p the Rural population is about 807 million.

as to Vortex, well how is one to react when I was simply trying to dispel the stereo typical image red brutal authutorian regime in the PRC (which can only be applied to the Mao era PRC), am I only allowed to say negative things about China? I’ve discussed much negative and positive things about it’s government. And would be pleased to answer/debate any question you have 🙂

as for humans being lazy, greedy and power hungry.. well I probably can agree there..but for that human to get that power he wants, he’ll have to get off his lazy ass and go get it 😉