Pakistan Air Force has been subject to US control over its spares for 50 years. Did not stop them using the machines well. Goes without saying that spare will be cut off in time of conflict. They are exopecting that.

:rolleyes:

5 Billion $ wasted.

I agree, I am not saying Pak would do it without US approval, my point is it can be done at a later stage away from the prying eyes of congress.

Another example of “just making sh&t up as you go along” from Greenday?

I would be surprised if US didn’t already have comprehensive knowledge of Pakistani facilities considering the fact that they had had their personnel at pakistani bases for a long time. Even Chuck Yaeger was a USAF advisor to PAF and played his role in integration of Amercian missiles on chinese systems.

Sure, but now they’ll know whats been updated.

Only time would reveal the real meaning.

No boss- its straight forward –

• US presence to ‘‘monitor compliance’’ with the security plan and a ‘‘very enhanced end-use monitoring programme’’.

Means that they’ll be checking to see whats going on with those planes at every level and making sure they arent being tampered with or modified (say for Nukes) etc

Can any other country, lets say Denmark used F-16 in exercises with another country which has become hostile to US of A?

They dont want China to exercise with the F-16s

To my knowledge, it is PAF personnel who carry out maintenance of their existing aircrafts in dedicated facilities at home and not the subcontractors. In an case this clause may be there to put a stop to any chinese involvement.

Subcontractors here= non LM / non PAF personnel. Say people who’ll need to put in new EW kit. So thats ruled out.

Routine access to F-16 aircraft also restricted to Pakistan Air Force personnel pre-approved by the US. And only the PAF can perform maintenance, no Pakistan contractors, industry or third countries to be involved.

VR—–Only thing i see here is the requirment of approval from US, and they are entitled to it since they don’t wants chinese coming anywhere close to these machines.

This is just a reiteration of the previous comment, ie nobody else can mess around with these planes.

Nuke delivery makes sense. But what is ‘highly defended’? Something that is defended with latest amercian gadgets or…?

Advanced SAMs, AWACs, Modern 3D radars…all of which the opponent is inducting

Finally lets not ignore another important bit. Unless im mistaken the same person during this hearing also argued that this sale would help further American influence in PAF/Pak. Now what sort of influence one can expect to buy with can so called ‘neutered’ and ‘unoffensive’ machines? Was US senate once again being manipulated or were these senators outrightly stupid to accept this line of argument?

He’s just arguing for the sale since it will give influence…and wont it?

A third of your combat fleet will now be in US hands reference spares…thats basically political power for them.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2522

Air Force to acquire 28 Tejas (LCA) fighter jets by 2007

Dated 19/9/2006

The Indian Air Force is all set to induct the indigenously developed Light Combat Fighter Aircraft Tejas by 2007, former project director Dr. Kota Harinarayana said on Tuesday.

Talking to UNI on the sidelines of a conference of Project Management Practitioners organised by the Bangalore Chamber of Industries and Commerce, he said initially 28 aircraft, including eight serial production and 20 firm orders from IAF, would be inducted.

They would have the GE404 engines. Tejas would be fitted with indigenous Kaveri engine in five years, he added.

He said Tejas would enhance the air superiority of the country.

The project is linked with the larger interest of the national security, he added.

He said that the LCA programme was envisaged to replace the MIG aircraft and expressed confidence that the Tejas would be a contemporary fighter for the next 30 years.

I doubt i very much Nick. Any airforce on this planet would prefer a new and unprovedn tech over mature yet neutered technology. That’s logical.

Are you serious Vikas? I would say exactly the opposite, or rather a mix of both. In the case of the PAF suppose you were inducting 3 entirely new types, JF-17, J-10, XXX each with teething troubles – now if there was a conflict in between?
At least now, theres a mix of two unproven and one proven (ie one which LM has worked all the kinks out of, worldwide).

PGM strikes on what though? Undefended targets? What’s the whole point?

Look at the entire package. The EW system is sorely lacking, and which might put pilots at risk, but in a pinch the PAF could take losses, even if severe and at least counterattack into InAF territory. Plus in a defensive role its fairly ok- decent radar, missiles and good dogfighter.

And US senate is not being told about this? Its being manipulated/deceived? All evidence shows that Pak would be paying from her own pocket, and u can get quite a few french machines for $5.1 billion, which would most definitely not be neutered.

Well ask Greenday1 this- he’s saying that the Senate will not be informed.

If you look at US Aid figures some substantial money has flown to Pak, so a portion of this could be US money.

And considering per unit costs – I’d think these are cheaper than Dash 5 M2ks and plus you save on logistics cost at airbases/retraining etc thanks to experience with prior F-16s. So you would have got less Mirages is my guess. French PGMs/ Missiles even if full spec are very expensive. US has made so many airframes and rounds, that its costs have been amortized and its prices are reasonable unless you ask for bleeding edge stuff (AESA etc)

I think the PAF should have just gone for French even if more expensive (even the Mirage series is proven), but I think Pak is too deeply tied with the F-16 & the F-16 issue from US is more than just economics & plain tech as well, theres an emotive angle to it as well given past history.

Sorry Nick, but are u saying that IAF can go ahead with modernising its equipment of lets say russian or french origin without consulting russians first?

If we discuss this here, everyone will yell. So take it up in the IAF thread if you want, and I’ll join in later.

Just few simple questions.
First of all the same US senate was told that Pak would be getting $3 billion dollar in aid with $1.5 of it going to military. Im sure u know that most of that money has already been spent, which means that a huge chunk of this $5.1 billion for F-16 package would be coming from Pakistan’s own pocket. Agreed?

If so, why would PAF purchase these so called ‘neutered’ machines when they have other options available? France has already approved Marlin sale to PN. With Indian decision to disregard M2K-5 for MRCA competition, Rafale has a close to nothing chance of winning this contract. Under these circumstances, dont you think France would be more than willing to sell M2K-5/Rafale and with considerable teeth to PAF if the latter wanted it? Lets even forget France for an instant. All indications are that FC-1 will be coming to Pakistan in near future and that J-10 discussions are already underway. Why would Pakistan prefer ‘neutered’ F-16 instead of spending all that money on one of these chinese machines. They would undoubtedly be much better than those ‘neutered’ F-16s, wont have any risk of sanction, and would come with various other advantages. Wouldn’t u agree?

I would certainly be waiting for a logical response.

Vikas, one could be that the JF-17 is still an unknown quantity and relying on it & its performance would be too risky, whereas for all its warts, the US supplied F-16 is more mature.

Also despite the severe lack of a quality EW system or RWR restrictions or whatever, its still useful for PGM strikes. I doubt whether the missiles & radar are also NATO standard given all the hoop-la over just the EW system.

There is also the factor that this is probably being purchased with US money given to Pak, so in effect this is sort of an agreed upon thing, plus usually French aircraft and munitions are far more expensive.

http://boss.streamos.com/real/hir/56_fcs071906.smi

Relevant bits in bold.

HILLEN: Mr. Rohrabacher, these F-16s specifically will not be sold to Pakistan to be capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

ROHRABACHER: The ones that will, of course, with mechanics or engineers — they won’t be able to alter that at all?

HILLEN: The F-16s were giving them, Mr. Rohrabacher, will not be nuclear capable.

ROHRABACHER: There’s no little tweaking that can be done to the underside that could permit them to carry that type of weapon?

HILLEN: That, of course, is certainly possible. One of the things that we gain from doing this deal, Mr. Rohrabacher, is exactly that access and influence I’ve talked about.

So, if Pakistan wanted to make a move like that — which we would think imprudent — we have this extraordinary security plan with U.S. personnel. We have monitoring, we have leverage…

HILLEN: That was a question for the Pakistan and the modernization of air forces.

I would note, Mr. Rohrabacher, that in our structure of the sale, I referred to before a set of documents never before shared in an arms notification process, between the executive branch and Congress, that I made the decision to share.

And it enumerated the technologies were not, that would usually go with an F-16, that are not part of this deal. And they include ones that would allow the F-16 to be used in offensive ways to penetrate airspace of another country that was highly defended. So, I think that’s worth noting.

Additionly we can add DFRM anytime in the future or get them from a third party.

Proof?