From the helicopter linky thingy-

The deal envisages the initial delivery of 60 helicopters in a fly-away condition and co-production of 137 helicopters after 100 per cent technology transfer by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

And for the first time, the deal will include a 30 per cent offset to be negotiated according to the defence ministry’s requirements.

Holy cow! Thats some good negotiation skills. :rolleyes: 😎

Slipperysam, I thought you were just venting, but after reading the entire no videos of airliners skimming the ground, jetfuel dont melt steel bla blah, I realized you are one more 9/11 conspiracy theorist..heck I am not even American and I can see it straightaway!

I sure am sorry no survivors were around filming their entire experiences in solid detail to answer all these wonderful questions. Meanwhile, popular mechanics has a nice article responding to all these theories, on their website. Read it. 😀

Cheerio, :p

Govt announces new defence procurement norms

Dunno if posted before.

In a move to cut down delays in armament procurement, the government Wednesday unveiled new weapons procurement procedures reintroducing the fast track process in modified form and making field trials of weapons systems more transparent.

The new defence procurement procedures and manual-2006 released by the Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee for the first time also announced a new ‘make’ procedure to boost indigenous research development and production facilities.

In a major concession and boost to domestic armament industry — both private and public sector — the new policy has a provision for providing level playing field for indigenous vendors vis-a-vis foreign players by allowing comparision of prices of foreign vendors with indigenous offers by subtracting excise duty, sales tax and local levies.

Through the new policy, the government has also made amplification of the defence offset implementation policy thereby signalling that international tenders for some of the country’s biggest ever defence deals like the acquisition of 126 multi-role combat aircraft may be in the offing.

The request for proposals for the 126 combat aircraft are likely to be issued next month and industry sources say it could be the biggest ever deal by India, running up to or more than $15 billion (about Rs 69,750 crores).

It is not the only mega defence deal coming up. In another big ticket deal worth more than $700 million (about Rs 3,225 crore), the army is to sign an agreement for purchase of 197 helicopters to replace its ageing fleet of Chetaks and Cheetahs. Two firms, Bell Helicopter of the US and European consortium EADS, the maker of Euro-Copter, have been shortlisted and evaluated.

Another major deal would be for the purchase of new 155mm guns upgraded to .52 calibre. India is opting to buy 400 of these upgraded guns whose induction is almost 12 years behind schedule. The army has already conducted three test trials and an unprecedented fourth one is currently on between the Swedish Bofors guns and Israeli Soltam guns.

Apparently stung by criticism over the delay in evaluation, the government has said all field trials of equipment would be made more transparent. “These trials would be conducted on no cost, no commitment basis and equipment of all the vendors would trial evaluated together in field conditions,” the defence minister told newsmen after the release of the new policy.

Elaborating on the ‘make’ procedure, Mukherjee said it has been designed to enable Indian industries develop high technology complex systems and undertake upgrade of weapons required by the armed forces.

“The new policy provides for sharing of development costs with the two vendors identified following a transparent selection process,” he said. The minister also said that ‘make’ would bridge a critical gap in defence procurment procedures and pave way for increased participation of Indian industry in the defence sector.

On the modified fast procedure, Mukherjee said a top down approach would be adopted in which all critical decisions on acquiring weapons platform urgently would be decided in a “collegiate manner” by the defence acquisition council.

The new policy also lays down that in all defence contracts worth more than Rs 100 crore it would be mandatory for both sellers and buyers to sign a pre-integrity pact to avoid all forms of corruption and bringing in undue influence to win contracts. The new policy also amplifies the defence offsets in all deals worth more than Rs 300 crore.

The sellers have been given option on offsets in the shape of direct purchases or executing export orders for defence manufacturers or services provided by Indian defence industries. It says all suppliers of equipment take offsets in the shape of maintenance, overhaul, upgradation of the systems and direct foreign investment in Indian defence industries.

15 Billion $ . The EF and Rafale seem definite contenders?

Uh oh. Paks AEW & C in trouble?

They are not the first though-others- have also brought this up.

Saab bought out Ericcsons radar business, but this move could still affect the deal, especially if India makes a point to tie in other purchases including the 400piece (overall numbers go upto a massive 1800 units) Artillery procurement, for which Celsius is a frontrunner.

Well theres always China. Tho’ the F-16s would remain bereft of AEW coverage. Dont see the US agreeing to let Chinese engineers mess around with the APG-68 V(9), IFF etc.

You’ve had your share of immautre posts way more in numbers than Packard.

Your response is as expected. Birds of a feather, stick together.

You can goto Chinese Exports Thread for more information and since you seem to be very fascinated about Strategypage articles, perhaps you could forward a link to the editors as well :). Thats my answer to 95% of your post.

We are referring to Chinese-Pak exports here & only three things in specific. Learn to read.

Strategypage failed to touch the export successes such as K-9, Artillery Units to Kuwait and many more etc

Read the above.

Al-Khalid is an on-going process, its not the end of things for PA, for everyone’s information, now they’ve been seemed to be equipped with Varta, slow and steady improvements :), while there is no harm trying to export it [apparently BD or SL has got some very few, I’m not sure which of the country] they’re doing the job they were intended for :).

More generic twaddle. The issue was and is, how many have been exported vs original claims, of it going in numbers to KSA? Or here and there?
Talk apart, how many are in Bangladesh or Sri Lanka?
Just saying that its an “ongoing process”- well fyi, even the T-72 is an ongoing process. Whats the advantage of buying an Al Khalid when a T-72 with Relict ERA, a spanking new FCS and all sorts of gizmos is available off the shelf & is being marketed to everyone?

Strategy Page cant even say a proper name, its FC-1 and JF-17, not FC-17, but I’m still wasting my time commenting on the article, the plane is just fine and improving constantly, apart from Pakistan, who are the major stake holders, its common sense for everyone else to wait and see what the final picture will be, you dont sell an unfinished product…unless you get to share the profits/ see the final configuration.

You seem to be saying “fine, fine” but provide no data to back up your statements. This seems to be an article of faith rather than an objective notation. Where are the exact specifics? If anyone queries regarding the same, replies like yours come out. At the same time we have 70-80% of the F-16 or 50% or whatever. By what standards? For crying out loud, be objective & either admit to the hyperbole & that when this pointed out- you promptly take recourse in the “it aint been finalized, so everythings top secret and hence unknown” arguement.

Pakistan nor China are really concerned if the Planes or tanks make any sales outside their respective borders, we want a product, we get one, simple as that 🙂 , any sales outside is a bonus, there is a viable market, no harm trying to go there :)..atleast China got products to sell 😉

Ah, so now Pak is not worried about exports at all. Wonderful. I guess thats why Pak donated multiple Super Musshaks to another country, just to prompt sales!

Yes Indeed China has the biggest Millitary Industry, maybe apart from Russia, it has a bigger muscle than anyone else in west,east and South 😉 around it.

Irrelevant to the article under distinction. The Chinese top line J-10’s, ZTZ-99s or Type 54s are not being discussed here.

Strategy Page thinks Kargil was a more dramatic event than China-India war in early 60s, yea sure, once Leeroy Jenkins, forever Leeroy Jenkins.

More hyperbole.

And Thank You for the link regarding the Grifo 🙂

Sure. Someone has to do something useful while the rest stick to the usual.

Packard, dear boy- if you dont have anything worthwhile to say, then its best not to say anything at all. Contrast bringiton’s post #142 with your #144- that of a mature reply vs a petulant one.

I think its best you let the serious posters talk, while you stick to crossposting pretty pictures, which you do reasonably well. 😎

Contact 3 which is the generation of ERA fitted to the T-90 since it entered service will greatly reduce the penetration of any HEAT or APDSFS warhead hitting it.

Yes, but not enough against the latest M829A3 and Charm3 APFSDS. These rounds have substantial penetration capability & can penetrate through portions of glacis and hull at 2Km & below.

They already have deployed laser beam riding rounds that will penetrate enemy tanks from the side and rear and helicopters out to 5km range.

Yes but a caveat. To use them at 5 KM, you need optics that are far more than the current 10X systems available on most western and Russian tanks, that would allow optimum targetting. Plus we were speaking of frontal attack ability, this is like having stuff which you can only use in some advantageous conditions. Its pretty hard to detect, acquire, and fire onto targets at max advertised ranges, which remain mostly for discussion- most engagements take place at the 2KM-3 Km distance. The one exception have been the Israelis who have developed FCS in particular to engage in long range gunnery with adaptive electronics (unique FCS to each tank).

Shtora disrupts optical FCS. ARENA will stop most HEATFS rounds at 1km range or so.
It will also stop HESH rounds too.

Shtora – by the time it reacts, a firing solution would have been obtained and you’ll have an unjammable KE round on the way. Plus western tanks wont use HEAT or HESH against T series tanks would they?

In service and Operational.

Have to disagree here , the system has been deployed yes, but it still has some kinks that needed to worked out for operation in all possible scenarios.

Drozd-1 was used operationally in Afghanistan and was found to stop attacks 70% of the time. Drozd-2 is a second generation system based on that experience. Arena is also based on that experience too. These are second gen systems… compared to what system that is operational and in service?

From everything I’ve heard & read, the newer European and Israeli Act Defense systems have some critical advantages over the above types. The Russian ones are good, but the Russian cash crunch has meant that they havent kept evolving, eg, EADS is currently planning on fielding an anti KE APS based on its currently developed APS but Russia is still trying to find an export customer to take its APS program forward.