And If I am France, I’d be laughing at both of you while preparing for even deeper pockets.

Yup. If the EU arms embargo on China is lifted.. :rolleyes:

Updated MiGs not flying high for IAF
Rajat Pandit
[ 10 Sep, 2006 0049hrs ISTTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]

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NEW DELHI:

If you thought only the older MiG-21 variants were a headache for IAF, think again. Even the upgraded MiG-21s, called ‘Bisons’, are proving a nightmare for pilots.

At any given time, only one-third of the 113 MiG-21 Bisons inducted into IAF so far are fully operational to undertake combat missions. “The rest are usually grounded for lack of spares, maintenance and overhauling,” say sources.

“The serviceability of Bisons, which IAF will fly till 2020, is as low as 33%. Since the rest cannot be certified to be 100% airworthy, they are now usually not flown to avoid crashes,” they add. Incidentally, three Bisons have already crashed since their induction began in 2001-2002.

IAF would “officially” like to contest the 33% figure. It claims the Bison serviceability has now improved to “around 55-60%” . But even this means almost half the Bison fleet is grounded at all times.

This has serious implications for IAF at a time when Pakistan is on course to acquire more American F-16s and JF-17 ‘Thunder’ jets jointly developed with China, which itself is expanding its air force at a very rapid clip.

As reported first by TOI, IAF has also complained to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd about the air-unworthiness and tardy serviceability of the around 90 Jaguar deep-penetration strike fighters it has. Similar problems are being faced by the over 100 MiG-27MLs in the fleet.

To top it all, as also reported by TOI earlier, IAF is facing a steady depletion in number of fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets), which is likely to touch an all-time low of 28 next year from a high of 39.5 two decades ago.

The IAF says “various contracts” have been signed to improve “the spares situation and serviceability” of Bisons. “Supplies have already commenced. In addition, HAL has signed long-term repair agreements with various vendors,” said the IAF spokesperson.

“Repair and overhaul facilities for Russian spares are also being set up at HAL. Lab facilities in all air-bases have been set up for better reliability of the systems. To improve the MTBF (mean-time between failure) of various systems, design deficiencies are being resolved,” he added.

Things have come to such a pass since the indigenous ‘Tejas’ Light Combat Aircraft, which was to replace MiG-21s, is still nowhere near becoming operational.

LOL, good old Ghaznavi/Mirko now Packard & his selective “bold” letters…

Lets put the rest in bold as well, shall we…

IAF would “officially” like to contest the 33% figure. It claims the Bison serviceability has now improved to “around 55-60%” .

The IAF says “various contracts” have been signed to improve “the spares situation and serviceability” of Bisons. “Supplies have already commenced. In addition, HAL has signed long-term repair agreements with various vendors,” said the IAF spokesperson.

Teething problems are true for any system.

And the IAF has been open about the process :

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Awards/db/qnumpage.php?srnum=17135

Vayu Sena Medal (Devotion to Duty)
Wg Cdr Nayani Harish 17135 F(P) Award Date Announced 26 Jan 05 No Image Available
Details : Wing Commander Nayani Harish (17135) Flying (Pilot) was commissioned in the flying branch of the LAF on 28 May 1983.

He is commanding Officer of a frontline fighter squadron since 05 Dec 2002. Wg Cdr Harish took over command of the Squadron at a critical juncture when the squadron was in the process of inducting the Bison aircraft. At that time, the fleet was beset by teething problems and frequent snags with an overall serviceability in the region of 30%. Utilizing his experience as a Test Pilot and technical knowledge of the aircraft and its systems, he responded to the clarion call and dealt with the problem at hand with professionalism. With commendable foresight and clarity of thought he adopted a pro?active approach and kept higher formations informed of the problem and suggested viable solutions. As a result of his untiring efforts, the serviceability state of the squadron improved drastically and presently stands at an average of 70%.

The induction of the Bison aircraft ushered in advanced systems and weapons into the service. With sustained involvement and determination, Wg Cdr Harish formulated sound standard operating procedures and checklists to effectively utilise the aircraft as a weapons system. A large number of pilots were successfully converted onto the type and were distributed to other Bison squadrons to propagate the knowledge and training thus gained. The success and high professional standards displayed by the squadron in various exercises at national as well as international level stand testimony to the professionalism and dedication of the officer. The officer also formulated a detailed Air Test Proforma to be followed for the Bison aircraft. For his professionalism, dedication and exceptional devotion to duty, the Hon’ble President is pleased to award Vayu. Sena Medal to Wing Commander Nayani Harish.

Unit :
3 Squadron

Nayani Harish is now deputed to the LCA test program as a pilot:

From ada.gov.in

* Group Captain Harish, flew LCA-Tejas PV2 for 27 Minutes on 21-Aug-06.

* Captain Moulankar, flew LCA-Tejas TD1 for 35 Minutes on 14-Aug-06.

* LCA-Tejas PV2 flew for 38 Minutes on 26-Jun-06.

* Wg Cdr AP Singh, flew LCA-Tejas TD1 on 21-Jun-06.

* Wg Cdr Vikram Singh, flew LCA-Tejas PV2 for 35 Minutes on 02-Jun-06.

As regards LCA being nowhere near operational, gee, I wonder what the above flights are for then! Perhaps the plane will magically become operational by itself without a test flight regime. :rolleyes:

As regards the IAFs seriousness, they depute the cream of their pool- note the seniority of the test pilots- all wing commanders & above, with extensive experience behind them, to the LCA program.

Apart from the IAF, the Navy deputes, its own pilot- Captain Moulankar.

Pavel Felgenhauer for the Russian Armed forces, Rajat Pandit/ Rahul Bedi for India, every country has sensationalist idiots as “journalists” who wake up one year late to details released by the AF at an awards investiture and pass it off as a scoop. :rolleyes:

Fedaykin,

Comparing the F7PGs to the Bison is pointless. Its radar is limited to WVR, its avionics are fairly primitive- in contrast the Bison has an integrated navattack set with a RLG gyro, MFD plus HUD, plus HMCS, a modern SPJ +RHAWS and a MMR (Kopyo 21) which allows for BVR engagements with active AAMs as well as computer aided bombing, plus PGMs- TV Guided.
That apart, the entire aircraft is overhauled, has its ECS and electricals replaced, and reevaluated for a longer life.

All in all, the Bison is a far more complex piece of machinery than the PG. The PG has a limited A2A set (space constraints), and no MFD even, with the basic display being only on the HUD, never mind a fully modern Nav-attack system, or the range of weaponry the Bison can support (which includes Kh-25 series ASMs and ARMs).

Per info I read on T-net – neither this or the latest BM series rounds (KE) went into production, internal consumption included.

The issue is one of mass production which apparently requires they invest in it, and they arent doing so.

Otherwise, its not such a big deal anyways…Russia is exporting 1000-1200mm Kornets, >800 mm Refleks – basically almost the entire shop.

In other words, theres no particular advantage brought to the table by this super HEAT round so they might not purchase it themselves.

Or it could be Indian pressure having the French sell “only” three. Whereupon India is informed that it can buy the next French sub..and so it goes … :rolleyes:

Nick,

This is going to be a long enough post so I’ll leave your previous post unanswered, directly, as I think I answer most of it carrying through below to your later post and to Garry anyway. I’m happy to leave the BR issue as settled by the line that – I have my own perceptions of some sections of an excellent site and you have issues with some of my perceptions!. Fair enough?

Quite fair Jonesy!

Also to state that I wasn’t labelling you as one of the flag-wrapped, myopically-nationalistic Indian posters that seem to float around so much of the internet and apologise if I gave you the impression I was. You will have seen that stereotype though surely!.

Sure, it takes all kinds to make the world! 🙂

Done that kind of thing too many times!. Always drag posts into notepad and reply to them offline now just in case!

Ah I sure wish I had! 😮

Have no problem with that Nick…but its a bit of a goalpost shift. The point I was reacting to was that the Ka-31 is some wonderful, all-encompassing, system that will be a key enabler for long-range BrahMos shots as some seem to believe. Simply put its not.

No, thats not what I was getting at- I feel I didnt make my point clearly – I tried to do so in the other post, till I lost it to Internet Exploder…what I am getting at is the Ka-31 is one of the assets the IN is fitting into increase the reach of its sensors. Now obviously, it wont be the lynchpin by itself- but a host of improvements are being made, this includes the LRMP assets (which to be fair, thanks to the paper pushing at MOD) are in not an enviable state (we need more). However, the present Ka-31’s should help the IN in allowing for LR AShM shots, if they are tasked for the role.

Again thats now talking about other systems than the Ka-31. The point still stands that Ka-31 is going to provide a bare minimum low alt radar coverage and cueing for targetting assets local to IN task groups and very little else. It will be a useful platform in IN service no doubt….but it is certainly not the one-stop solution to OTH targetting that some try to make out here!.

Oh that we agree upon- its not the be-all & end-all by any means!

My views on the sensibility of relying on other services to provide critical targetting and support are on record on this site. I remember all to well the stories of the ‘assistance’ provided by the RAF Nimrod force to the RN in the Falkands and it left something to be desired!. I am biased here and will openly admit it but I would be a very suprised man if (for example) an air defence emergency blew up over India and the IAF maintained a Phalcon tasking in support of the IN. More likely they’ll recall their AEW platform to support their own ops and leave the IN right in it….I’ve seen it more times than I can count and not just from my own country’s forces!.

I agree. But what I have found useful in determining what the “likely” actions will be, is to see the limited role India’s assets are currently tasked with. Now the issue is of # of assets- which is related to what you note. In this case, with Three Phalcons- the IAF may act stingy, but there might be two more on the way, plus three local AEW & C platforms. Surely enough dont you think? Be as it may, the last is what is important- based on the INs prior actions, I’ll wager a cold one, that the Navy will seek a platform to deploy these local systems or acquire similar units, provided it gets a platform. And given recent news (NG saying that they’ll take IN views into concern) etc and the IN still evaluating the E-2, there might be a carrierborne AEW & C platform in the works.

Again though the Ka-31 is being talked up much more than just as ‘another asset’ if you listen to some posters. The point I’m making is that it is a sorely limited platform – just like every other chopper AEW platform!.

Fair point.

Believe me I know all about having to find creative solutions to problems where a little expenditure would alleviate the situations. Why do you think I am the way I am about service inefficiency!.
I appreciate your point about good personnel and good training being able to offset some of the deficiencies caused by poor/delayed acquisition plans. That approach though ultimately costs you people and all it takes is for something to goof up ‘the plan’ and you have a disaster on your hands. in the scenario where India is spending defence rupees on spurious weapons systems to engage threats that simply wont exist for 10 years I’d be sorely p1ssed if i was a Fulcrum pilot taking all sorts of chances flying dodgy ingress profiles trying to avoid counter detection because providing me with proper cover wasn’t deemed important enough to action!.

Jonesy, this is what I was trying to get at. With Pak acquiring Erieyes, and fielding F-16’s, a Gorshkov MiG attack on any vital Pak asset (say Karachi) will be in concert with the IAF. If you look at the past five years, def. exercises and the like, the Navy-IAF-IA exercises have been focusing on joint ops. The Phalcon per some recent articles is to be the lynchpin of an entire Indian ISR network to be available to all three services.

There is a contradiction here which is the whole point I am driving at really Nick. On the one hand you’re happy to dismiss my concerns about the resources applied to BrahMos with the statement that India has deep pockets and can afford the missiles and all the associated infrastructure that supports it even if it is not absolutely necessary to have the system!. Then you turn round and lament the fact that AWACs is the preserve of the rich!. In one view you seem to state that India can be lavish with its expenditure and on the other its too poor to acquire systems that are critical in modern warfare?!.

No, you misunderstand! The point was that earlier, since AWACs were unaffordable for India, the IAF & IN etc adjusted their training to compensate. This was in context to the point, that though AWACs is a lovely thing to have, the IAF & IN have gone to war with much less & trained to compensate. Today, India can afford an AWACs for the Navy, but the question is of a platform which can take off from the Gorshkov/ ADS safely without having weight/ safety restrictions. This has led to the delay in acquiring one, and the acquisition of an interim platform the Ka-31!

Dont think that went into production mate?

That’s because Iran is “eeeeeeeevvvill”…… 😀

I just checked the link, the people bashing it are Iranians! :rolleyes: :p

Flex,

Nice comparison, but if it has a Kopyo, it also needs a R-77 to be truly effective and have the Russians sold that to the Iranians?