Nick_76right, keep on having noisy subs, then. good for you
And they are noisy because wait, they didnt have 20 bladed propellers or whatever..
no, I’m stating the results of its induction. but hey, you seem to want to pick a fight with me, so whatever.
Again, you simply dont know the reasons for the induction, which are related to the IN’s long term sub building plan…not just because Scorpene was fancier than the Agosta…
It does depend more than just the # of blades, but 7 blade propellors is a newer technology compared to 5 blade propellor. and pump jet are more advanced than 7 blade propellors. There is a reason nobody use 5 blade propellors any more.
Oh sheesh, you still dont get it. The choice of blades has to do with hydrodynamic loading and preventing cavitation. It has nothing to do with x number is better than y, where x is greater than y.
we will see who is right.
Yawn.
what’s utter nonsense, what else do they have to test on?
Utter nonsense is your silly belief that just because Russia doesnt have access to an Agosta or whatever, it cannot continue to progress in subquietening technology or benchmark its products to high standards based on taking current data and extrapolating it statistically.
you can’t get an accurate reading on a much quieter sub unless you really test on it. Especially since some of these numbers are confidential.
Right…by those same standards, even the claims of French subs being quieter than Russian ones fail to pass muster..
wow, I’m flattered that you would put so much effort into this.
No…I just like to know whom I am debating with and in this case, I think I shall stop here, because you do appear to be the quintessential energizer bunny on such topics on the internet, and go on and on and on and on…
I dont have the time or energy…so sayonara..
USN put a lot more resources into this. And they actually practice against modern SSKs like Gotland and Collins just so that they can improve their ASW suite.
Yawn..Russia makes SSKs…so much for that claim..
Russian commercial processors/technologies? They are really nothing to talk about. They are even behind China in those areas
Good lord, more nationalistic drivel…
I don’t care about what’s provided to Pak. I’m arguing P-3C ASW suite against sea dragon in general. Is there anybody non-Pakistani here who actually have the illusion that PN has a chance of surviving against IN?
In general is correct….generally I can make a lot of speculative comments based on “gut feel”, but I’d hold off without proof…something which should be considered by you too.
Nick_76It is a mistake to underestimate China. China’s shipbuilding industry dominates the world. India’s shipbuilding industry is miniscule in comparison.
We all know that India has been talking very loudly about an indigenous carrier for years, but we wont see the ADS at sea for perhaps another decade.
On the other hand, China doesn’t seem to announce its military shipbuilding intentions until the ship is actually fitting out. I don’t know what is planned for Varyag, but it is easy to believe that if the Chinese leadership want aircraft carriers, the Chinese leadership will get aircraft carriers.
The Indian military dont underestimate the Chinese. Nor do they underestimate the difficulties involved in actually operating a career and integrating it into ops, as compared to building one.
As regards “India talking very loudly” etc etc, all democracies do that. Its called freedom of speech and freedom of the media to ferret out whatever they wish, and print the same. China is a different matter. But as is also obvious, such statements “secretive China” vs “loud Indians” are a bit pointless, since the proliferation of Chinese military mags/journals and the fanboys on the internet, clearly show that “bragging” is not an Indian trait alone..if the press was allowed the same degree of freedom in China, then the amount of reportage would swamp Indias.
Nick_76It seems that with all the modernisation the Army is being neglected maybe the ground reality is different, but the IN is buying new ships and warfare systems and the IAF is buying new Aircraft. but the Army still doesnt have the Artilary it wanted or the Tanks (thanks to the Arjun fiasco) and is still waiting for better body protection gear.
Outdated is correct. The Army today has tons of new Indian, Israeli and French gear (Imagers-long range, radars, comms) and is linking them all together, has new C3I grids/ comms/ NCW eqpt..
Body protection- well no kneepads, elbowpads like the US, but BPJs are dime a dozen…
Arty- 130mm being upgraded to 155mm, Smerches purchased, Pinakas as well (2 Regs)…thats a substantial increase in MLRS tubes, plus a huge amount of extended range ammo from Russia for the exisiting BM-21’s, plus Arty C3I from DRDO being inducted, as well as new WLR’s and Battlefield surveillance radars.
The Towed howitzer program is currently underway…ie trials..the SPG based on the Arjun chassis has sunk off the face of the Earth eversince corruption charges were brought against Denel..
Tanks, 310 T90S, plus round 250 T-72 Upgrades ordered..latter are pretty ok for the subcontinent, new Israeli ammo for them being license manufactured…
Currently FCS trials are underway for the T-72 fleet upgrades…and T90S production is being put in place. Once that gets finalized, then the situation will improve rather drastically. That apart, the first five Arjuns are undergoing quality/user assurance trials to verify the integrity of the production process..once thats done, the remaining 100 odd tanks will be produced.
All in all, the IA is re-equipping, its just that for a million man Army, multiple projects go on in parallel, and its not easy..
Nick_76there are people who automatically sounds like they know what they are talking about. Then, there are people that sound like Qantaz
“Automatically sounds like”.. :rolleyes:
you can improve the LA class as much as you want and it’s not going to be as quiet as a sea wolf. You can improve a kilo as much as you want and it’s not going to be as quiet as an amur.
And thats the extent of your arguement? You do realise that active searches dont distinguish between quite and non quiet subs.
what comparison? what the heck are you talking about? I’m saying the Scorpenes is a great sub.
You misread the reason for its induction.
certain propellors are much quieter than other propellors. 4-blade propellors are loud, 5 blade propellors are less loud, and then 6 blade are less loud, 7 are less loud and the pump jet propellors are pretty modern. Look, but if you think some 80-90s kilo sub using old propellor technology can be less noisy than a kilo using new propellor technology. I guess there really is nothing I can say.
Again, you are talking utter nonsense. Please read the portions described previously and you should then realise propeller selection depends upon a variety of factors and the advantages gained vary as well. Its not simply 20 propellers are more silent than 19 or 18 better than 17..
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Figures..
I don’t deny ATV. But as for akula, I will believe IN is getting it the day that it joins IN.
Thats your personal tilt speaking.
yeah, they’ve done a couple of tests on their kilos. What else do they have?
Utter nonsense again. “Couple of tests on their kilos”. LOL, sure.
]quote]You think the kilos can compare in noise level to the Gotland subs or the Sea wolf?[/QUOTE]
Care to point out where I said so? I noted that you can extrapolate performance against different parameters given what you already have. Simple..
yeah, but I’m Chinese Canadian, there is a difference.
Having done a search on you and seeing the wide variety of your posts, I can only say “whatever”…
I’m not affiliated to Pakistan in anyway. I’m simply arguing for P-3C and American ASW platforms in general. The Americans have always put more resources than the Russians in this field to defend against the Soviet sub threat. After 1989, I think it’s quite logical that the gap between American ASW platforms and Russian ones have widened.
Thats the one sensible thing you have said so far…but what you fail to understand is that with the cold war over, a vast array of commercial technologies and processors are now available to the Russians, and hence the quality of their products has seen a marked jump.
Unless you have the technical specs of whats being provided to Pak, export specs and compare it to the suite on the Israeli/ Russian modded IN Tu’s and Ils’, your claims are speculation.
Nick_76Has anybody seen the TopOwl? Its huge.
Am pretty sure we’ll get to learn (in the future) that they went for some other HMD, not Topowl but eitrher DASH or that other one for the Rafale.
This confusion in reports is very typical. Wasnt the MKI supposed to “certainly” have TOTEM INS but years later it turned out it was SAGEM Sigma 95 and not SEXTANT? Similarly for MKIs VEH 3000 HUD but turned out to be Elbit..
Nick_76The Zhuk-MF has been undergoing flight tests on a Mig-29 partly funded by Mig, In fact it is quite likely that the MF will be ready about the same time the 29K is, but of course that aircraft has been in development for some time and its specs fixed for a while. But it does make one wonder why the Indians have not opted for it for either the Mig-29 upgrade programme or the 29K.
Basically, its performance and timeline (plus cost) dont make it substantially more attractive for the IN.
Apparently theres also a program to develop an AESA by P-NIIR for the MiG-35/ 29 OVT…that might give substantially better performance, despite the weight/ volume constraints.
Nick_76cant the Bars be fitted on the mig29K.i think thats more powerful than the ZhukM with a detection range of 150kms?
No, per figures another poster on another board was kind enuff to give me:
Detection range of Zhuk ME: 110-120 KM/ 45-50 (forward/ rear hemisphere), 10/4 (TWS/ engage)
Zhuk MFE:100-110/ 45-50, 20/4 (TWS/ engage)
Bars-29: 100-120 / NA , 15/5( TWS/ engage)
All figures for RCS= 5 Sq Mtr
These are latest figures from NIIR and NIIP.
Please ignore those huge fancy billboards at Maks for the MFE…the radar has nowhere those features yet, actual performance is much more conservative and realistic.
As you can see, apart from interleaving modes and a “claimed” (radar is still in development), the MFE is not substantially better than the ME.
Also for a naval aircraft, better scanning angles might be helpful. The ME is a reasonable radar.
Nick_76Aw, big deal. Much ado over nothing and you are getting worked up over it. 😎
Nick_76may even tarang will make it in ,what about the israeli stuffs ???
The Tarang is the RWR, per Harry Tarang Mk2- navalized, Roshni- “illumination”, is the RWR of choice for the Navy.
Israeli stuff? Display map generators, Electronic warfare pod (Elta 8222 variant) to complement the Tusker pod, Video data recorders (for HUD footage), Target designation pods like the Litening (though I dunno whether Navy would require this. Probably only if the 29 K’s have a significant ground attack role).
What sort of radar are we looking for the MiG29k? Zhuk M? or Zhuk MF? What is the difference?
Zhuk M, its a slotted array, MF is phased array.
Zhuk M has a 120 km range against 5 sq Mtr RCS, can track 10 targets, engage 4, has ground mapping modes.
The MF is a paper product, actually more of a developmental one and is still being developed. The IN wanted something fast and off the shelf rather than waiting around & spending more, so they chose the 29 K, which can be integrated with newer weapons etc quicker. The MF technically offers better performance , but as prior experience with Phazatron has showed, the often fantastic claims get downsized pretty fast in the final version..
The Zhuk ME is a reasonable radar, and supports the R-77, R-27 (dont think Navy will buy this), KH- series of PG Missiles and KAB series of guided/ unguided bombs, plus the R-73E.
Overall, the package is quite competitive against the best that India’s rivals can field.
The IN MiG29K’s will also be getting Helmet Mounted Displays, and signature reduction for the aircraft.
The IN has already signed a deal for the latest generation, laser projection full simulator from Germanys AVIOR for the 29-K.
All in all, this is a very capable aircraft.
Nick_76HAL manufactured IFF, Cockpit instrumentation, Radar altimeter, etc
Probably the INCOM freq hopping/encrypted radio
Indian Mission computer, display processors
RWR
SPJ based on the Tusker pod for the Jaguars by DARE/DRDO
Nick_76Dude, you’re trying too hard and yes the above doesnt make any sense or apply here.
It applies most definitely for the claims made by your compatriots.
As regards “trying too hard”- please look at your signature, rather silly-dont you think?
Before you too start making outrageous claims like Bisons better than F-15’s and F-16’s, i say just stop ruining the thread.
Ah. The usual “if I allege something however untrue, about someone, then it becomes true”. That unfortunately definitely fits the pattern of “if I insist, so its true“.
Please do point out where I have said anything about Bisons being better than F-15’s or F-16’s. :rolleyes:
————————
If you gentlemen wish to debate constructively then please stop coming up with absurd variations of the mine is bigger than yours theme: the latest variation being, “you may have numbers, but I have technology”.
Unfortunately, the facts dont bear that out either. Of course, if anyone dares to point out that statements like “xyz is the best” because its US and you have it, whereas the opponent doesnt, (etc) are not exactly technical arguements, then the rhetoric begins.
Nick_76From JC @ B-R forums for the links
http://mod.nic.in/samachar/june15-06/h2.htm#l2
Interview with Air Marshal AK Singh, AOC-in-C, Western Air Command
How does it keep its men and machine in fighting-fit conditions?
Training of pilots, honing of skills in achieving higher productivity and performance remain on the top of agenda. Pilots practice between 20 and 22 sorties a month, one of the highest numbers in the world. Maintenance of aircraft is always top priority as well, and above all there is will and determination to maintain Western Air Command and Indian Air Force in supremely fighting-fit conditions all the time. We have been successful towards that. The constant air maintenance operation for the Indian Army also keeps us in top operational conditions. Loading of men, arms, ammunition, logistics materials and troops in extended workings hours to provide air maintenance in the world’s toughest circumstances keeps Western Air Command always on an operational mode. Of late, Western Air Command has also been involved in assisting Indian Army in operations against terrorists in Kashmir areas with brilliant results.
How is Western Air Command meeting the challenges of futuristic battle scenario?
Futuristic battel scenario would witness information domination. Strategic and tactical operations would centre around intelligence, use of UAVs for general surveillance and satellite communications would be in heavy use. UAVs would be tracking multiple targets and hitting them. Along with this, passing real time information for the ground force would be important. Beyond visual range warfare induction of Aerostat, Master T Radars, and use of AWACS, precision missiles and bombs, electronics and communication would play a key role. Air-to-air radars would be covering a distance of more than 120 km. Warefare would become network centric. Electronic warfare and laser guided pods would be in big use. Use of air power will become more versatile and precise. A quick deployment and multi-tasking would be a need of the hour. Western Air Command and Indian Air Force are fully prepared and geared up to meet these future challenges. New acquisitions of UAVs, proposed induction of AWACS, more powerful radars, modernisation of its communication network and use of latest electronics is boosting the intelligence and information inquiries of Indian Air Force to meet these challenges. Acquisition of latest fighter aircrafts, mid – air refuelling capacity enhancement, induction of precision ammunition, missiles, rockets, laser pods and constant training is keeping Indian Air Force and Western Air Command ahead all the time. All this is being done with an utmost emphasis on enhancing productivity, performance and achievement levels. Future battles would also see higher synergy level with ground forces. Western Air Command is keeping itself in an ever-operational state by undertaking exercises with Northern Command, Western Command and South-Western Command of the Indian Army. It recently participated in a big way in the exercise Sangha Shakti in which three IL-76, twentythree AN 32, eight MI-17 and four MI 35 participated.
Nice info about sorties…
From Janes (PAKISTAN – PLUGGING THE GAPS, Robert Karniol JDW’s Asia-Pacific Editor
Bangkok)
About the PAF:
In 2000, our flying per pilot was in the region of nine hours per month. We have progressively taken this up to 15 hours, or 15 sorties,” he said, adding that the figure has now stabilised.
Nick_76its in these arenas the advantge is being gained in terms of technology.
Talk about cyclical arguementation on the basis of dubious commentary.
“I talk,
therefore I am,
I insist,
so it must be true.”
:-/
Nick_76Not a pissing contest, just injecting a dose of reality vis a vis hyperbole ( a handful of super duper subs/whatever are the best there are etc, without considering their practical effect on the balance of combat power..)
Nick_76Explain how Dhruv outclasses Z-9C in teh ASW role (assuming HAL have not grounded them again?)
Easily. One exists in IN service, the other yet to join the PN. And the ALHs are doing quite well, thanks very much. 😉
Right, let me see. Every major western Maritime power is using P-3C. India tried to get hold of second hand examples, and so this tech is from Middle Ages? The current frontline maritime MPA of teh USN?
India purchases its items to make them sanctions proof. PAF F-16s anyone?
Agin, your starting to sound like “Ming the Merciless” here
Well Flash, your arguements are somewhat spaceman-ish.. 😉
Bramho is invincible nothing can stop it, PAF will be “wiped out”!!!
Interesting point…what does the PN have in terms of hard kill/ soft-kill to stop a Brahmos? 😉
Sorry dude, I only do facts.
😀 Is this the humour thread?
SU-30MKI and the fleet of M2Ks will be facing an F-16C/AMRAAM C-5 combo AND a J-10/SD-10 combo.
Thats not something any air force bar perhaps the USAF would be able to “wipe out” easily.
The RAF, French AF, PLAAF, IAF, IDFAF etc can deal with a handful of your F-16s and “on paper” J-10’s with their existing fleets. 😉
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