Nick_76What in the PN inventory would be in the same class as the 3 P-15s or the 3 Talwars?
What ships in the PN would be of the same class of the 3 P-15As, 3 P-17s, and 3 Talwar IIs, and 4 P-28s? Most, if not all of the 13 ships will be in the water by 2012.
Even easier, what in the PN is in the same class as the P-25As?
Thats unfair! 🙂
Nick_76The same Ghazi that sunk an IN ship?
One swallow does not spring make..
I have proved so far that PN tech is ahead of IN in several areas
Where, how and when…you seem to just pull claims out of thin air…
Especially MPA, Anti-shiop missiles and Subamrines. All you come back with is insults.
More nonsense..you have made claims. Not verified them in anyway. When asked to do so, you hide behind rhetoric. X country makes y, so it must be da best. Pakistan has it, so it must be da best. Etc. :rolleyes:
Point proven.
Right. :rolleyes:
Take care, am not about to listen to more childish remarks.
But we have been listening to yours! 🙁
I will keep it simple
Oh goody!
Agosta 90B,
3 of them. India has many more subs,with upgrades and hence more combat effect. 😎
P-3C,
Offset by the greater number of aircraft deployed by India in a pure numbers comparison. In terms of onboard sensors, no proof provided by you.
In terms of combat effect, this factor addressed by Indian airpower, SAM and radar picket deployment ability.
Harpoon II.
Brahmos.
These out perform their IN counterparts. Its simple as that, if you refuse to accpet basic facts its impossible to argue with you, we can be here all day.
Again claims. No facts provided.
The earth is flat. Its simple as that, if you refuse to accpet basic facts its impossible to argue with you, we can be here all day.
:rolleyes:
Agosta 90B is the reason IN scrambled around for Scorpene. The same way they will scramble around for something else once Marlin deal is signed.
Nonsense. The IN bought Scorpene as part of their long term plan. Sure, they were concerned about the Agosta 90 purchase, but to imply that as the main reason ignores the IN’s longer submarine building program.
P-3C – IN tried to buy this but refused on price.
IN’s being offered P-8’s instead. Why bother with yesterdays equipment today? 😮
TU-142 may not even be servicable.
More nonsense..the cites given previously, show how the IN’s Tu-142s are being regularly overhauled.
Everything I have said above I have supported with evidence.
Oh dang, I burst my sides laughing! “PN ECM”??? 😀
In return I get inspired ansers such as “IN will wipe out PN” “IAF will wipe out PAF”
Sarcasm is lost on you. Those were a direct counterpoint to your ridiculous claims.
If thats the case, why even bother coming onto a PN thread anyway?
To determine the truth?
I am not going to respond to baiting any more, if you have something valuable to say say it.
Point out your logical fallacies is not baiting, its restoring sanity to the discussion.
Nick_76Marlin is the only thing PN has a small element of doubt on. The rest of the equipment talked about is already in service.
😀 😀 😀
PN wont stand still while IN aqquires future equipment. Far from being outlasssed. Out gunned yes, not outclassed!
Earth to saturn…the PN has been outclassed long ago. 😎
Nick_76Trust me, all sorts of crazy s**T is happening on this thread, as long as you slap on IN colours to them a Kilo can outperfom a Agosta 90B, Sea Eagle is better then Harpoon 2 which is described as “obsolete”, TU-142s are better then P-3Cs update III.
Yeah, we have had it all today! :p
Actually, given your arguements (or lack of thereof)- we have claims that the PNs magical sensors (who/what/which) are the best ..PN “ECM” is “assumed” to be great, everything Pak has is automatically da best…
Meanwhile, reality kicks in, and in depositions to the US senate, the State Dept representative deals a blow detailing how neutered the PAF F-16’s are.. :p
Nick_76PAF F-16s may lack offensive SEAD avionics. Dont think it will stop them using the APG-68/AMRAAM C5 combo though.
What is “offensive SEAD avionics”? :rolleyes:
The PAF F-16s lack modern ECM, plain and simple. The IN doesnt. 😉
Nick_76Its nice to know that you can all write off the premier CWIS system in use with the USN. I believe Phalanax is capable against all “known” threats. I would place a much greater amount of faith in US tech then I would over Russian/Indian tech ANY day of the week.
LOL. Thats the extent of your arguementation? Whats next- I would place greater reliance on Martian tech anyday just because the PN has it. :rolleyes:
Your agreeing with my point here. You assuming air superiority. Without fighters they will be able to vector in the sweet sum of Foxtrot Oscar
Actually I am not. Like I said, you need to read more carefully. 😉
The Ka-31’s serve an excellent role as radar pickets, that can range from setting traps for MPA’s whether by surface ships…to OTH targetting for Brahmos/Uran etc.
As regards “air superiority”, one does not need air superiority to vector in fighters. The air superiority is a result of the fighters coming in. Given that the Indian CBG will have better chance of its fighters being on station in an effective manner, than land based fighters operating at the edge of their fuel/ payload envelope to reach the fleet, strike/ dogfight and then all the way back.
And that the IAF will support an IN effort. Or do we take that away too, as unfair. :p
Nick_76http://www.natoseasparrow.org/art/ESSMvideo/ESSM-SDTS.wmv
George, some proof of ESSM being tested against supersonic targets repeatedly. 😎
Check from 3:30 onwards if you are running short of time. Otherwise, its an excellent watch in entirety.
Nick_76#
Its fair to say we mean long range fixed wing aircraft when talking about MPAs. Thats the definition most people use.
IN helicopters wont be operating Maritime Patrol on their own from shore bases. They will be attached to ships. Ships that will targeted by MPAs.
Oh my..
And the fact that the KA-31’s serve as radar pickets to protect the fleet from MPA’s and vector fighters onto them, need not be considered.
Talk about stacking the deck by removing those key assets which allow an IN fleet to neutralize the PN’s MPA’s.
Nick_76You do realize that the Hanit also had the Phalanx right? 😉
So, let’s rephrase what you said:
The less said about PHALANX performance the better. If it WAS switched in by the Israeli ship, then thats really bad news for any PHALANX user.
😀 😉
Nick_76So, what is it? “Not a huge” advantage or “significant margin”?
If you’re going to throw in the Marlins and the Z-9s, might as well throw in the Scorpenes, Akula(s), and whatever the IN chooses to replace the oldest sixteen Seakings with another eight on options.
Thats quite unfair of you Victor. 🙂
Nick_76The PNs air defence assets include the latest block of Phalanax.
Hard kill, last defence, not even a missile, please dont pass that off as anything great.
Chinese surface ti air missiles.
Now the LY60N is the great white hope? How many are deployed currently and how many will be on order?
Itssafe to assume they have not been neglecting ECM either.
Safe to assume? Thats it?
Brahmos on SU-30 wont be in service for a few years yet.
[/QUOTE]
But werent we counting the exocets and Harpoons before they were hatched, never mind the Marlins. 😉
The less said about Baraks performance the better. If it WAS switched in by the Israeli ship, then thats really bad news for any Barak user.
Nope. Not good logic. The Barak was on standby, and the Israeli crews incompetence was to blame.
No ones discarding teh Dorniers by any means, but I dont think they will realistically be thrown into the mix if IN is fighting PN in Pakistani waters. Maybe I am wrong?
Again, the Do 228’s can be used overland and have been in prior Indo-Pak conflicts. They are extremely capable aircraft, in terms of sensor fits and ability.
With regard to PN ECM
Exocet, torpedo tubes and Lynx helicopter facilities were all added in RN service, but torpedo tubes were subsequently removed in all but Badr and Shahjahan and all are to be retrofitted by Pakistan using Swedish equipment. Exocet was not transferred and the obsolete Seacat SAM system is being replaced by Chinese LY 60N which is a copy of Aspide. New EW equipment has been installed. ATAS sonar has been acquired (two sets only) but plans to update the hull sonars have been shelved. Other equipment upgrades are projected and include Harpoon (from the Gearings), a DA08 search radar, an optronic director, new 30 mm and 20 mm guns, SRBOC chaff launchers. An improved combat data system with a datalink to shore HQ is also being fitted. The first fully equipped ship is not expected to complete until late 1998, but some of the modifications are being done during routine maintenance periods.
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/navy/index.html[/QUOTE]
Thats it? What is this “new EW equipment” which can be talked about?
And the hull sonars remain as it is, without upgrade, the equipment fit doesnt seem really substantial.
Nick_76Oh, my mistake, I thought we were comparing the ASW and ASUW capabilities of the IN and PN. So, I agree, let’s take out one of the biggest advantages the IN enjoys over the PN (the ASW/ASUW/AEW helos) out of the equation to make it a fair fight.
Lets just reduce the IN to a fourth, forget about the Dornier or anything else that flies, forget about its refitted subs or the IAF…and ok, thats a fair fight. 😮
Nick_76The advantge is not a huge one. PN also has Sea King and the Sea Lynx as well as Chinese Z-9C Helcopter on order.
How many?
But in terms if helicopter assetts yes, IN outnumbers PN by a significant margin, as well as in ships.
Quite contradictory- an admission, compared to the above.
My point is that in several key areas, Pakistan is technologically ahead or on par with the Indian Navy. This has happend in the past 5 years. I am sure we all agree, 10-15 years ago, PN has changed out of all recognition.
Hyperbole alert, yet again. We are yet to see these magic areas where the PN is technologically ahead of the IN.
Its safe to assume that in any Air-Sea war, it will be IN attempting a blockade or assault on Pakistan’s shores. UNLESS air superiority is established, there is no way India can now defeat the PN.
Assumptions, assumptions…and air superiority wont be established? 😀
Not when you take P-3Cs, Agostas and potentially Marlins into consideration.
Potentially is right, for now its paper talk..
This is why the carrier and IAF SU-30s will be vital now in any Air-Sea war, they will have to come into range of PAF Fighters.
You wish, with Brahmos having a ~ 300 km range..
Ww wil also have Exocet armed Mirages to supplemt any anti-ship actvity.
Which will be dealt with by the IAF, even before they get near any IN ship.
Whoever wins the air war over the sea,will also win the sea war.
Nice statement in a generic sense, but essentially meaningless.
Thanks to JF-17, F-16s and J-10s, IAF air dominance over the Pakistan sea board will not be guarenteed.
Uh oh paper talk again.
“Thanks to MKI’s, MRCA’s, MiG-29’s, and Mirage 2000’s, the PAF will be wiped out”.
Sigh.
Nick_76Sea Eagle has been out of service with the RAF now for many years, in fact I dont think there has been a new version since the early 90s.
Not good when next door will be deploying the latest versions of Harpoon 2 and Exocet.
Yawn, by when India would also be deploying the Brahmos (intended for its MKIs) and the Uran (upgraded Il 38’s), but never mind.
And India’s Baraks plus its substantial investment in ECM (Rafael ECM kits/ Ajanta Mk 2 ECM system) on its frontline ships adds to its defence against “Harpoons and exocets”.
Despite your “chat” with the Jaguar pilot, the UK MOD preferred using the Harpoon for its greater weighta nd range in replace of Sea Eagle. Please lets not fudge the issue. IN are not using Sea Eagle becuase its the best out there. Its old and needs replacing. Very doubtful if it could stand up to modern ECM/Phalanax combo.
You need to read more carefully Yasser, please point out where I said that its “the best out there”? I merely pointed out that compared to what the IAF evaluated for its Jaguars, its pretty reasonable even today & that the IAF considers it fairly sufficient for its task, given what it faces from the Pakistani Navy. Which quite frankly, does not have an air defence investment of any substantial note, on its ships.
Now what the RN thought is a different thing- it didnt face the PN, it faced greater threats.
As regards it being old and needing replacing, again, what makes you “know this”? Or is it just the good old line you used to push earlier? That the RN phased them out, hence its done for!
As regards Modern ECM…what modern ECM does the PN employ in such significant numbers…please tell us..!
The Dorniers wont be attacking Pakistans coast with such short range, its about 1,200 miles right?
Nice semantic dancing there, if you are talking of MPA’s, which can do a variety of roles, including sea denial and defending Indian territory, the Dorniers are quite capable. They can also be used in a variety of recce and ESM roles from land bases, and have been used so repeatedly.
Nick_76According to this report, the TU-142s have not been upgraded and an upgrade is still being “considered”. So essentially we are atlking about aircraft with 1980s tech still in them.
A Russian full upgrade, as on the lines of the Sea Dragon suite, and comprehensive mech/ engine upgrade, not done–>yes.
An upgrade, with Israeli radars + Indian ESM equipment (check MOD website)–is being conducted, reported on Indian TV, not been publicized much thanks to russian ire with israelis snapping up their deals.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Tu-142.html
In the same March 2004 report, Defense News reported that the Indian Navy had approached Rosoboronexport in November 2003 to upgrade their fleet of Tu-142s for a cost no more than USD $555.5 million. However the proposal put forward by Rosoboronexport to upgrade these aircraft with the Morskoy Zmei (Sea Dragon) multi-mission avionics and electronic warfare suite was rejected. The primary reasons were reportedly system performance issues and an exorbitant price tag, listed at USD $888.9 million by Rosoboronexport. In January 2004, a team of Indian Naval Aviation pilots visited Russia to evaluate a Sea Dragon-equipped Tu-142 aircraft. However the Sea Dragon suite failed to meet essential parameters and its detection capabilities were found inadequate. In February 2004, the Indian Navy approached Rosoboronexport again to have Israeli firms collaborate with Russian firms to customise a MMA and EW suite. However that proposal was rejected by Rosoboronexport, on the basis that the upgrade would have to be wholly Russian and must include the Sea Dragon suite.
Again from the same March 2004 report, Defense News reported that the Indian Navy then turned directly towards Israeli firms for the upgrade and that the Ministry of Defence would issue two individual RFPs (Requests For Proposals) to Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) and Elbit Systems to tailor a MMA and EW suite for the Tu-142 fleet. The RFPs are expected to be issued by the MoD in April 2004 and proposals are expected to be due within three months. This upgrade is expected to wholly revamp the Tu-142 into a modern maritime recon and electronic warfare aircraft. It is assumed that this has already taken place. By early 2004, the IN had reportedly completed with the refit of a Tu-142M (IN 315) with the Elta EL/M-2022A (V3) radar. The radar replaced the Leninets Korschun system and a comprehensive ELINT and COMINT package, with nose and fuselage mounted V/UHF antennae and an underfuselage P-band antenna farm, was also incorporated. This upgrade is similar to the upgrade package of the IN’s Do-228s and features additional SATCOM, ELINT and EW equipment. It would be interesting to compare the capabilities of the Russian warfare suite with its Israeli counterpart, as the IL-38s are to be upgraded with the Sea Dragon suite.
Interfax-AVN reported in September 2004, that the Taganrog Aviation Company (Tavia) was implementing a contract for the repair of a Tu-142ME aircraft of the Indian Navy. Tavia’s Director General, Nikolai Savitskikh, stated, “Another Indian plane of this type is currently under repairs at the aircraft plant. According to the schedule, the enterprise must annually repair one Indian Tu-142ME.” He also stated that the enterprise was only repairing the Indian aircraft, not upgrading them. “Eight Tu-142MEs were supplied to India in 1987-1988. They are repaired in turns, all of them have been repaired once and are now up for the second repairs,” the Director General said. Repairs of both Russian and Indian Tu-142 planes provide for most of the company’s workload, he stated.
I dont think the TU-142s can even carry anti-ship missiles? Can they? If so what type? The Sea Eagle is now quite old I think.
The Sea Eagle. (Tu-142’s)
The Il 38s can carry the Sea Eagle (original) & the Uran (upgraded)
The Sea Eagle is pretty good despite its vintage. I had a decent yackety yack with IAF Jaguar pilots tasked with sea denial, and they rank it as a very good AShM. Apparently, they evaluated a few recent models, and didnt proceed because the Sea Eagle was still OK vis a vis even these newer ones.
It will take a good 10-12 years to induct all the Scorpenes. Its entirely concivable, (if Pakistan signs a contract this year as PN Nava chief stated) then its very lilkly PN and IN fleets will be inducted at the same time.
Let the PN contract be signed first.
Versus subs:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Project28.html
Project Update: Plate cutting of the first vessel in the series commenced on 12 August 2005.
The Project 28 (P28) ASW corvette will be the Indian Navy’s new anti-submarine warfare (ASW) surface combatant for the 21st century. The program calls for 4 units of this class. In a news article from the Press Trust of India, dated 30 October 2005, Rear Admiral T S Ganeshan (Retd) – GRSE’s Chairman & Managing Director – said, “It is a 2500 ton corvette armed with stealth-mounted guns, the latest electronic warfare suite which, together with other key operational equipment and is shielded using stealth technology incorporated into the design of the bulwarks. The structure of the ship would be such that it would cut down noise drastically to prevent it from getting detected by enemy submarines. But it will be able to detect an enemy submarine from a distance and destroy it.” Other signature management control features are built in to combat the ship’s infrared, radar-cross signature, noise and magnetic outputs. Electricity is supplied via four diesel generators, while two independent interconnected switchboards optimize redundancy and reliability. The ships will be built at Kolkota’s premier ship-building establishment, Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE). Officials at GRSE stated that the order for the ASW corvettes was received in 2003 and the first vessel is expected to be delivered to the Navy in 2009.
Not to mention that all the new surface combatants of the IN being built/ inducted have substantial ASuW capability..(Delhi class, Krivaks..etc)
Firstly I belive the force consists of 5 IL-38s and 8 TU-142s.
Missing out the substantial number of Do-228’s..
10 inducted, 7 on order at HAL (should have been delivered by now), another 11 ordered in March 2005.
Basically equipped with Israeli radar, datalink, FLIR/Optics, local ESM and mission gear.
The Indian Coast Guard has another 24 of the type! 🙂
Whats basically been happening is whilst the IN firms up its plans for a next gen/ modern MPA airframe, its been periodically ordering Do-228’s for some decent ability.
Six Do-228’s of the IN fleet are part of the Information Warfare squadron, basically ESM sniffin’ and surveillance, used at Kargil for building up a threat database of Pak radars, while escorted by MiG-29’s.
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