Nick_76The actual first world air forces in Asia (Japan, Taiwan, South Korea) don’t have to cite a list where the most of the items do not exist today and have no guarantee of existing in the numbers quoted tomorrow or anytime soon.
You wish. The figures (MKI, MRCA, AWACs) are all firm ones and nothing wishy washy- if you are unable to discern the same, mores the pity.
Nick_76Economically, India is still a third world nation. Granted, they’re moving into the second world, but they’re not quite there yet.
Which has little to do with the acquisitions Bring it on mentioned, since they are all firmed and have clearance for acquisition. Only the fifth gen a/c file is currently before the MOD, rest have received clearance- including the MKI project, LCA project (complete the project with adequate funding), AWACs project (Phalcon + local), datalinks, ADGES upgrade (Radars, Spyder, New Sams, datalinks), IFR, MRCA..
Japan may be first world, or Korea may be approaching there, the sheer size of the Indian economy (and its security needs place it in a different class).
Nick_76What MiG 5th gen fighter? What LCA?
What Indigenous AWACs? Right now, they have Su-30MKIs, which are awesome planes, but don’t count your chickens before they hatch.
The LCA is flying. By the same standards you put forth, one may well write off all the developmental J-10’s, JF-17’s, AWACS etc.
Nick_76WS-10 works. Where does Kaveri stand?
They got the Russians to fix it. India now has the money to do likewise.Production challenges for the WS-10 remain.
Nick_76Or it might be that China is banking on the superiority of its systems over Russian designs in the years to come.
Speculation.
The only reason that Russia is ahead of China in avionics development is due to the massive amounts of resources invested in it during the years of the Soviet Union. In recent years, the Russian economy has tanked, and has only recently started growing. Meanwhile, the Chinese economy experiences exceptionally high gains every year. Enormous amounts are being poured into research institutes, and China has the economy to sustain this development.
This, frankly, is hyperbole. Right now, there is practically nothing China makes that Russia does not have superior items to or cannot replicate if it desires (eg AWACs with AFAR). And nor are the Russians standing still- they have far superior items to their current range planned for & being tested (including compact AESA/AFAR FCRs ).
China itself is heavily dependent on Russia for the J-10 program, from its design ,to its engine and even radars for future variants.
Time is on China’s side, and China has the ability to invest considerably more resources into research and development.
Many a slip betwixt the cup and the lip. By joining up with countries like India for codevelopment & financing, Russia can continue to be in the lead, as it currently is, and with a fair margin at that.
Nick_76The high amounts of production alone will make the plane a very influential fighter,
Do we know this for sure?
and it the fact that many later Chinese planes will draw from its lineage. Already – twin engine stealth variants and naval variants are in development.
The same can be said of other programs. And I really dont think that one can just make a “stealth variant” of a plane. That would have to be an ab-initio effort.
The airframe is very modular, and it is likely that these planes will be upgraded many times.
Which is true of practically any aircraft today, how is this in anyway unique?
The political ramifications alone are worth considering – countries such as Pakistan, Nigeria, Iran, Zimbabwe, and other less friendly nations now have the ability to purchase a relatively modern plane. With estimated production totals of 1200 planes, the sheer number and widespread availability of plane later one would make very influential.
The key words are “estimated”.
To be honest, we know next to nothing about this aircrafts actual performance. The US DOD has a record of inflating Opfor equipment to raise the threat bogey- and during the Cold War, who doesnt remember the invincible T-XXskis.
With the amount of upgrades the J-10 is likely to receive coupled with the fact that it is likely to be exported to many countries will make it at the very least, quite influential. Even today, the woefully outdated Mig-21/J-7 still decide battles in wars between less industrialized nations with significant reserves of the worlds natural resources.
Again, this is highly optimistic. The era in which the J-10 is coming, there are stealth fighters, Eurocanards, mass productionized teen -series fighters, light fighters, Russian planes straddling a range of abilities…
Sure, the J-10 may be able to swing a few African export contacts, but its highly doubtful it will ever be a fraction of what the F-16 was, since in tech and combat terms, it was almost disruptive in terms of technology incorporated, and progressed rapidly in terms of market share especially since the collapse of the FSU meant that their upgrading plans fell by the wayside, but the F-16 went from strength to strength..
The J-10 is good for Chinas local aircraft industry, but its still a mystery figure in terms of actual performance or even its future.
Nick_76I’ve been looking more closely to some of the 6 newly-delivered F-7 and 2 FT-7 and I saw what I think to be a twin-barrel 23 mm gun (chinese copy of GSh-23) under the fuselage of the trainer version.
If so, this would really be a first for the MiG-21 family – to have a trainer with a gun incorporated rather than only attached in a pod.
What do you guys think, am I right or is it something else?
Dayyum! I Love that blue camouflage!!!
Hats off to Chengdu for that paintjob- its so awesomely unusual!! 😮
Nick_76Nope. American, with Irish roots (hence the name in my signature). That’s pretty funny that you’d ask the question. I’ve been called Indian, Chinese, and even an ostrich. Why some people are so caught up in that aspect of a discussion is beyond me though.
Did you p1ss off Garry B? Did he call you a cassowary? 😀
Nick_76Agreed – again, the fact the PLAAF is not publishing information on exactly what happened. If it were a 1:1 ratio starting off at beyond visual range, I’d be very impressed. However, it may be possible that the J-10s are given advantages, such as being the defender, or having numerical superiority/better pilots. Without knowing the exact makeup of the exercises, a clear conclusion cannot be drawn.
Exactly my point.
However, it is worth knowing that Shenyang has traditionally been the politically favored manufacturer, and that the PLAAF officers and politicians elicited suprise when the J-10s won.
One of the reason I believe some form of breakthrough has been made in avionics/radar is that the new J-11s are ditching Russian radars and avionics in favor indigenous components. Whether this is because indigenous technology represents an upgrade, or simply for compatibility with Chinese weapons systems/ease of maintenance is unknown. It is most likely some combination of both factors.
To me it seems a case of straight forward import substitution, why depend on some fancy Russian item when your own can do the job or most of it, and you dont have to bicker with the Russians over spares and costs..
One thing is for certain, the J-10 will end up becoming one of the most influential planes of the early 21st century, just as the F-16 was easily the most influential planes of the late 20th century. I just hope their capabilities are never tested by fire.
Well, to be honest, that wont be true because the J-10 is firmly mid-4th gen, to be truly remarkable, it would have had to be a pathbreaker which the F-16 was when it was introduced.
Nick_76I’ve just been dying to ask this question… Even Anza_02 mentioned this. Are you by any chance indian?
Sure he is. Sioux & Cheyenne ancestry. Rides horses, does pow-wow, takes scalps!
Learnt all that in Ireland he did, whilst sipping Loch Lamond on his grandfathers knee.
😉
Nick_76but one shouldn’t be naive enough to believe that china will give away so much tech that pakistan becomes self sufficient in producing fighter jets. That will effect their own industry since they will loose their market and secondly they will face competition in the international export market from pakistan. Who would want that ?
Pakistan. 😉
Nick_76Enough money to bribe the US Congress to make sure they don’t block the sale? An actual in-service BVR weapon enabling effective training and tactics for employment to be developed? AAMs that can outrange the KS-172? An IAF pilot skilled in BVR combat thanks to years of training will have a degree of advantage over a PAF pilot brand new to the BVR game.
😀
Are all politicians the same worldwide?
Nick_76Thank you, much appreciated.
No problems, I have a ready store of political cliches for your viewing pleasure.
I know eh? 😎
Wonderful line of reasoning. “The PAF is not stupid, because it cannot be.”
HAA!!! you crack me up… let me remind you, PAF has used F-16’s for more than 15 years while the JF-17 hasn’t even entered service. The PAF crews know the F-16 well so how the He|_ |_ can it be better in flexibility? we are still getting the APG-68(V-9) with the same engine Link 16,JDAM capable, AIM-120 C5!!! what more do we need to take down Su-30’s?
For one, the JF-17 can carry nukes and second, it can actually undertake strikes into Indian territory without the US pulling the plug saying naughty, naughty!
its seems to be 🙂
As they say:
“Being a moderator of a forum in no way means you possess some massive store of knowledge or a long list of contacts.”
Nick_76It has consistently beaten out the J-11s in mock combat. This may be from a combination of its superior maneuverability, lower radar signature, better avionics and other possible improvements. It is possible that this plane has been grossly underestimated.
Unless one of us on this forum shows the exact situations under which these victories were achieved, this statistic is meaningless.
In IAF service, MiG 21 Bis’s flown by instructors have on many an occasion trounced their opponents including the high and mighty Su-30 K’s. Does this mean that they are indeed superior?
The IAF ostensibly got a 9:1 victory ratio against the USAF in Cope India, by varying tactics, pilot skill and ROE -with Bisons, MiG-29’s and Su-30Ks scoring kills against the F-15C. Out of which the Su-30K’s iirc had repeated victories,
Does that mean the Su-30 K is superior in every sense , to the F-15C? Not at all!
Your points 1 & 3 are quite logical!
Nick_76You say I’m full of it – not very nice – and then the only part you seem to be disputing is which side of the border the fighters were on? I don’t realy care – you choose.
I said you are full of it, because in this case you indeed are when you go about talking about something which you clearly know very little.
The IAF did cross the LOC on occasion, BUT, in the case of Nachiketa and Ahuja (Mig21) both, they were firmly on the Indian side. And you are indeed dissembling when you implied that Nachiketa (Mig-27)’s loss was “hidden”- it wasnt, there was a comprehensive after action report on the incident, all the way to an examination of the flameout conditions (distributed to pilots to avoid the same happening to others, disturbed airflow at thin air/ high alt meant issues for a strike fighter designed for low level flying).
Secondly, your bombast apart about the PAF not intervening & the IAF being lucky, the fact is that the IAF did cross and the PAF shied away.
Go ahead, ask your own AF..which is why I also gave you a specific instance!
As for swathes of IAF fighters going on bombing missions over the LOC unchallanged – yeah right. Tiger hill is in Indian territory and airspace — you want me to ask PAF why they didn’t intervene when you were flying in your airspace and bombing your own territory??? :p
Tiger Hill is indeed in Indian Airspace, but what makes you think that the best way to approach Tiger Hill was from the Indian side, to achieve surprise AND not overfly those portions of Indian territory, which at the time had PAF soldiers squatting on them with Stingers!
This alone shows that you are clearly unaware of this incident, and probably of all the others as well..
Basically, it may really surprise you, but the PAF was in a pathetic stage at Kargil..it was not uncommon for the IAF to field huge escort packages anticipating opposition given what they were going to do, only to see that the PAF was notably absent! 😮
However, the IAF pilots dont blame the PAF -they are charitable for this no show (:p) & just point out that the PAF’s readiness issues and serviceability concerns (Mush had not informed the PAF about Kargil plan, they had no time to get ready), plus lack of tech (no BVR), meant they were at a severe disadvantage, and hence held off..
Today, it might be a different case & PAF may come out to fight, but during Kargil, even IAF was taken aback by utter lack of PAF response bar a few probing incidents where the IAFs escort tactics held.
Have a nice day! 🙂
Sign In
