Nick_76Well it feels as if for a company as old as hall is they could have come up with something bigger even a similar size to the M346 before they paraded it. showing of that you can build a small jet is a bit well its just not needed.
so you built an IJT what of it? if you see what i mean.
Dont get me wrong the IJT is needed and we also do need the AJT if hal ever make one. but taking it around at airshows is a bit well not needed.
HAL needs to show the IJT everywhere, along with the ALH etc
Its all about brand management and creating a positive image of the firm, which can often translate into an earlier skeptical executive willing to give HAL some time to put their pitch to him…
An actual plane does far more than any amount of fancy brochures…and HALs order book is bulging…they should brush up their PR..
Nick_76Very interesting scoop Phrozen. I wonder what the PAF will do about the airframe though, will Il76’s be available?
Nick_76The J-10 IS rarely seen, except by people near Chengdu or a flight test center or base taking pictures and spreading them around on the internet. And China cancelled further purchases of Russian fighters. Doesn’t that tell you something?
Or that China is p!ssed off that it is not getting the best and the latest Russian items and is throwing its usual h!ssy fit ie negotiating by putting pressure on a KNAAPO which aint doing too great business wise.
Nick_76Note to all posters: Sometimes you have to retort to trolls in the language they best understand. It was not my intention to drag the PLAAF/ China into this sh!tfest, but apparently thats the only language some “gentlemen” understand.
Only “putdowns” came from those not Pakistani or Chinese and this is a Pakistani thread.
Please dont be silly and think that you are so smart that your antics pass by unnoticed. Your baiting is so obvious so as to be ludicrous.
The only professionals that have actually fought the IAF is the PAF.
Ah, you missed the inverted commas. Never mind. Apparently subtlety is lost on you.
It was far more than a match.
Really? Wow, we never knew. So great to have you with us Golden Dragon. Is the PAF training the PLAAF how to fly its planes? Surely they’ll do a better job than the PLAAF does, dont you think?
Against such top notch AF’s like the ROCAF, JASDF etc- hmmm, with the PLAAF being what it is (and not), it surely requires PAF pilots to do a decent job…I mean, we all saw what happened when an evil capitalist EP3 took on a poor helpless people’s J-8! Surely such travesties should never occur again!
If you need to bring in Western opinion, an American fighter pilot no less than Chuck Yeager has commented on the PAF and its ability.
Ah, lovely, Chuck Yeagers rants are passe’- every worthwhile commentator on the this topic has weighed in and pointed out the obvious errata in his claims. Y’might want to go to Acig.org and see what more informed folk (than you) have to say (or laugh) about the whole issue, but never mind.
But wait, nor did he fly against the AF, in excercises or war. But never mind, toodle along..
There have been US professionals talking about Singaporean, Taiwanese, Thai, etc. for decades before there were ever exercises between the IAF and the USAF. Very few of those nations feel the need to bring up praises over training exercises to stake a claim that they are somehow first world.
So, pilots who engage in exercises with the IAF and then refer to in glowing terms without being prompted to by any handler rub Golden Dragon the wrong way…so much so that he just has to wail about it.. tsk tsk…
Why? Because none speak like that about his beloved PLAAF- darn shame really, so he has to latch onto the coattails of the RSAF, ROCAF, Thai AF etc to wail…
Well, even sadder is that you neither fly nor have the professional credentials to consider what the IAF is, so one is forced unfortunately to take the words of pilots who recently evaluated the IAF over your forum jockeying..
And unfortunately, since nor are we as juvenile as you are to engage in this world, that world classification and we do look upon the IAF as capable of fulfilling its mandate, thats that…
But never mind, do fly your plastic planes, say vroom vroom and fantasise about whichever AF is what..
Perhaps, they don’t have the same baggage of military irrelevance and historic weakness to overcome.
Military irrelevance & historic weakness…ah! And to think you had the mendacity to speak of not indulging in baiting…
Lets return the compliment…what did China ever do to Japan..after the way Japan walked all over China & the like..
Wait, I know, it showed its historic strength and military relevance recently…ask its own citizens to riot and stage massive protests!
The strength, the relevance, is so amazing- I could have a stroke, laughing!
Oh wait, Chiang Kai Shek gives the single fingered salute and waltzes off to the now ROC….oh wait, what does China do? Oh yes! It throws a h!ssy fit every now and then, and of course, once a US CBG arrives, it all “cools down”…
I assume you were chanting “PLAAF PLAAF PLAAAF” dancing around with your eyes screwed shut and fingers in your ears…but never mind.. we’re all shocked and awed by Chinas military strength…pfffft….
Oh wait, what happened to that historically strong and militarily relevant J-8 which went the wrong way and was rudely brushed aside by an evil running dog of Great Satan ™ EP3? Dayyum- the historically strong and militarily relevant people had to return the EP3 to the Capitalist Oppressor!
The proletariat must have been shocked!
The difference between the Singaporean pilot and the Indian one is the Singaporean doesn’t brag about “winning” an exercise. This was more than amply illustrated in 2004 when the Indian newspapers began heralding “victory” which led to laughter in Singapore and the rest of the Far East.
Hmmm…actually the “difference” or whatever you call it was such that the RSAF promptly agreed to lease Indian training facilities and return, indicating what they thought of Indian pilots – their peers.
Irrespective of what local media said or didnt say…
Unfortunately, the PLAAF is a long way from such events…it seems to be more of a dog and pony show AF, with scripted drills and kung fu exercises to impress visitors…
Now the question should be more of what does the rest of the world think of the PLAAF, uh oh, didnt some USAF type refer to the PLAAF as a rubber band plane AF at the time of the EP3 incident?
Here is the funny thing, I was quite willing to give the PLAAF the respect they deserve, and not slag them- but then of course, your asinine antics wont stop until you draw them into the cesspool with you.
Quite unfair eh? But what to do, the more obnoxious and revanchist trolls need to be treated in the same manner as they behave.
Tsk tsk, Golden dragon… your profound and revanchist Chinese nationalism would be impressive, but I doubt whether you are even in China. Probably sitting safe in the United States or somewhere spouting off brave words about a PLAAF whose bases you havent visited, whose pilots you havent met, and whose actual service personnel who being professionals would consider your schlong comparisons and trolling antics juvenile and boorish, but never mind…toodle along!
Nick_76Bandit78,
Try to understand, see Phrozen agreed that the IAF can do its job, Qantaz stopped and hence all that drivel about first world/ second world stopped there as well.
Now see the above two posts by who else, Golden Dragon- a masterful example of how to bait & switch (ie use the US as a foil in addressing a local situation and saying “nyaah nyaah, against the US this is sh!te”, which of course he can assert was just used as an example or thereof)..
So, with his baiting, again the sequence of putdowns and counterputdowns begins, and we can definitely rise above it.
What counts is what professionals think of the IAF, not forum jockeys or baiters..in that respect, professionals who have “fought” against the IAF know what it is worth.
If need be, we can even see what two USAF professionals posted about the IAF on F-16.net- nor were they doing PR or doing feel good..
The fact is everyone acknowledges what the IAF has, in terms of machines to equipment. Now this offends certain nationalists, who then rant on about how c*rap x is & y world, not “b” world because it has too few z toys and so on and so forth, giving them any serious thought or time is a waste of ours.
Cheers.
Nick_76I’l take that as a no then. No independant sources to coroborate your ‘story’.
You are welcome to believe anything you want. Heres to your continuing good health,
Cheers mate!
Nick_76Except, you ignore the fact that I never called the PLAAF a first world air force. I’m rational enough to recognize that in any conflict with Japan or any other nation with a real first world air force, it would be destroyed.
Dear PF,
Considering the fact that the Japanese AF has a different set of criteria and is more defensive in its mandate, I find this shill arguement that you keep coming up with very amusing. Its pretty much I cant say anything nasty about you, so wait..I’ll pull up the USAF or whatever AF and say how baaad you are, that makes me feel better. Dont you think we should be more grown up and move up beyond all this juvenile nonsense and irrelevant comparisons?
India is even farther away, but you seem to have problems accepting that. Stop strawmanning.
If your PLAAF is indeed going to be “destroyed” by the JASDF, then I assure you something is wrong with the PLAAF, or rather your forum jockeying is getting too bizarre and illogical, given that I dont think that the PLAAF -JASDF comparison can be reduced to the simplistic terms you drive them to.
India is even farther away, again yet another nationalistic mine is bigger than yours statement, oh well.
As for Russia, it is a dieing power; their GDP is considerbaly lower then it was during the days of the old Soviet Union, and they aren’t spending 20-30% of their GDP on defense.
Yes, Russia is a dying power, but somehow it is this dying power whom China relies upon for J-10, JF-17, L-15 assistance, India for its Brahmos, MTA, 5th gen..
Please get real and chuck your hubris at the door. There is no point in bragging about a non existent superiority.
Even with continued investment by countries such as China and India, they will have problems holding on to any lead. China is already ditching Russian programs for indigenous designs, while many of these designs are getting assistance from Russian companies, it represents a very signifigant step forward.
And there is little evidence to suggest that China will not continue to seek Russian help for its high profile future projects, given its current limitations and time constraints. And the Russians fools do realize the limitations of their current MIC and are undertaking steps to ensure a viable future for the same.
Soviet era tooling can only take you so far, which is why the Su-27s assembled in Russia tend to have reliability problems, and the reason why the engines exported to India failed early. Russian companies do not have the budget to replace their tooling, while CAC is replacing its lines with new machinery from Japan and Germany.
This is again, a hilarious strawman of the nth order. So you are patting yourself on the back over some CNC machinery imported from Japan, Germany and Switzerland- well who transferred the design data and helped you set up those plants to make their aircraft, but the Russians? Your comments about Russian aircraft having reliability problems is again simplistic- show us the actual statistics of the exact numbers of failures, what they were traced to & then we will discuss this. Initial Russian engines in IAF service indeed had issues, but those Su-30 K engines were rectified and brought back into service and had a lot to do with operating condition in India. Once again, you seem to be assuming that Russians are not upgrading their plants at all- which I assure you, if you talk to any Irkut represenative for instance, you will gladly ditch this misconception.
Oh, and about Kaveri, the Russians did help India, it blew up anyways.
Which is pretty much nonsense. The engine didnt “blow up”. The technical description, and the correct event was that one of its blades flew off at a particular regime. Per JDW, a similar event happened to your WS-10 as well, so equal- equal, eh? The extent of Russian help was just lending a testbed for flight trials- penny pinching Indians, what to do!
The project is currently being assisted by SNEMCA.
Which misses the point as I was referring to the fact that both sides are using external consultancy for speeding up their projects, which again depends upon money, and thats about it.
As for the WS10A, it’s design has little to no Russian influence – it’s design is much more akin to, and probably based off a GE core.
I would really believe this, if this came from someone who worked on the engine, not the random speculation on the internet, which my grizzled and saddened old heart has seen enough to last a lifetime. And besides we now do now that the Russians played a vital role in the WS10 development, as they apparently did with many other Chinese programs. Nothing wrong, one learns from more experienced manufacturers.
Also, when did you hear they passed testing? WS10A passed final testing in November, 2005, two years have not passed. WS13A passed just recently, although I can’t seem to find the exact date. Both engines represent a signifigant increase in thrust over the AL31FN and the RD-93, respectively.
On this very website, there have been several posts and threads about the “imminent success” of the WS-10 and tom tomming of some test as being the final mile etc. The problem is of course that those views were based on the scarce data available from PRC press, and then speculated upon elsewhere, and given the difference in terminology, obvious poster enthusiasm and the lack of qualified aerospace specialists looking through these details with a mag. glass, such comments lead to more speculation. So I would hold off on the enthusiasm and urge to have mine is bigger than your comparisons.
For, time will tell and surely, the Chinese will get the WS -10 right. As ones economy improves and resources can be devoted to pressing projects, whether it is India or China, such projects ultimately do succeed. Heres wishing them well.
Nick_76Err if IAF is not first class Af PLAAF is what Third class? And ofcourse the pathetic airforce that has to accept junk like J-10 and JF-17 fifth class perhaps?
Qantaz, please let it slide.
There is no point in flaming or blowing our own trumpet. Discerning commentators know what the IAF is and we dont need to slag anyone else for that.
Serious request.
Nick_76Read Previous News Items, Pakistan chose the Chinese Avionics because they met its requirement.
Your argument is useless, one can use the same logic to say IAF is looking for foriegn fighters like a mad dog , and that REALLY tells what they think about LCA, (which as per latest news has been delayed again).
The IAF is looking for fighters because its MiGs are retiring. Including the 23’s which the LCA was not to replace anyways.
This has nothing to do about where country stands, they know Indians want to spend 7-8 Billion dollars and they want to cash in, show the money and they will come to you, its as simple as that. Being 8 times bigger, you can show 8 times more money atleast. Thats the standing.
Yup.
IAF is good, but I’m sorry, its no where near any first-world country AF. Most of the stuff which is faboulous is in pipeline and that pipe just keeps getting longer. New 126 fighters will take 15 years to arrive,
The entire production run will be gradual, and hence a decade plus plan for inducting so many planes,getting the logistics ready, plus their TOT etc is not at all unusual. If all it took was speed, look at the MKI program, its being run up by 2011, but the IAF used that to get itself leeway with the MRCA, and will use interim imports to manage as well.
LCA wont be in IAF before 2010, IAF is short of pilots by a number of 200, there are fears that squadrons will fall to 28 due to lack of deliverence by local firms and too much red tape deciding foreign plane…I woulndt call it a first-world airforce. Atleast a decade to get there.
What is a first world air force? Size? Or capability?
Which AF in the world now does not suffer pilot shortage?
You seem to be confused. The IAF has a pilot shortage over its maximal allotted strength for 39.5 squadrons. If the number of squadrons dip to 28, there will be a massive excess pool of pilots, as it is. Point to ponder?
Lastly, if anything, the IAFs capabilities have increased manifold- by 2011, there will be approx 190 odd Sukhois in IAF service, MKI’s with excellent A2A/A2G capbaility, a modernized ADGES, datalinks, the MiG29’s and Mirages are getting upgraded, ditto for the Jags and MiG27’s, it already has IFR, more EW assets are being purchased, with UAVs and greater emphasis on PGMs..
Even today, the IAFs capabilities are fairly extensive…
All this first world/ second world/ thrid world designation apart, it is fairly reasonable to say that the IAF can do the job its meant for, and thats what counts.
The rest is irrelevant/
Nick_76Really? Last time I checked, the engine for the LCA had exploded.
Last time I did, so had one of the WS 10 engines..that what is so amusing..you guys are so quick to pounce upon Indian projects out of national pride, but when it comes to your own, there is the Nelsons eye. 🙂
AWACs is definitely under development, and won’t be ready for primetime in a while, However, they have working, flying models.
Yes, flying working models…one crashed recently right? Should I use that to say that the program wll be delayed now etc etc?
J-10 has already entered serial production and squadrons are being inducted,
Show me the money, exact Squadrons/Regiments with it, #’s produced, performance specs…what we have on the net is a lot of analysis and gobbledegook which changes every now and then..
Jf-17 is finalized, and the lines are being setup as we speak.
Oh please…its still in trials..and prototype development.
The LCA has far more infrastructure ready as it is, in terms of program readiness.
LCA development is not nearly done. No lines are being setup, the engine is still being designed.
There are 28 LCA on order and a dedicated line is being set up, if the engine fails there are always more Ge404s.
Kaveri is still in the R&D phase, while WS10A is done, and entering production,
With Russian help, and similar measures are being adopted by India for the Kaveri..so, big deal.
WS13A is also done, and the lines are being setup. Both engines have passed testing. Sure, first batches will use Russian engines, but the Chinese engines will be out considerably sooner then Kaveri.
I have been hearing this passed testing for two years now..anyways, production teething issues will take up time to fix, per credible reportage…while the WS10 may indeed stabilize before Kaveri, by no means is the latter out of the race..it too is going very much the same way..in terms of external assistance fixing it and making it production ready.
India is far away from a first world air force – although the Su-30MKIs are pretty awesome.
ROTFL…by the same standards, I could diss the PLAAF as well..
But I know better than to play your juvenile games..
Stay away from nationalistic tendencies, India is far far away from a first world air force.
Look who is talking…the same gentleman who wanted to wave his schlong around and do a comparison with Russia..based on some imaginary extrapolation of Chinese strength and capability which sensible members on this board, would shirk from.
Of course when called on that dubious claim, off he comes to drag the IAF into this sorry line of arguementation, since his nationalistic corns were stepped upon.
Try all this again, and with someone else.
Nick_76Can’t wait for you to supply numerous independent sources that confirm that the IAF went over the LOC on numerous occasions – for reasonable periods (not just a quick over the line and back into safe Indian airspace) and the PAF allowed them to do so – without challenge.
ROTFL- thats why I asked you to contact your own AF!
The hilarious part of the whole affair is that publically the IAF claims it was a good little org and never crossed the LOC…
Let me repeat – when IAF was bombing only its own territory – the PAF could not intervene — diplomatic pressure and fear of escalation cannot be egnored. Why do you think that India repeatedly made statements saying that it was not and would go over the LOC – same reasons. But then agian I’m sure you know what ‘realy’ happened.
You can repeat it all you want..what diplomatic pressure stopped Pak from initiating Kargil?
Anyways, I am done here- I just realized that you really are unaware of the Kargil “saga” and the details dont matter as you are not interested in anything but a POV vs POV match
Reagrds
Nick_76The J-10 has reached operational service. That puts it ahead of the LCA, JF-17, and Chinese AWACS.
How many J-10s are in operational service- exact numbers? Which squadrons/ regiments they are in with confirmed data. Also what their performance is vis a vis other aircraft (confirmed details)..
See the problem here is that the J-10 is simply unknown. Too much speculation, picture gazing and conclusions drawn. It used to draw venomous comments if one even suggested that the J10 drew external help earlier, now its a given practically that the WS-10 has been fixed with Russian help, Russian orgs helped the design etc. But still nothing like a GAO report or a open frank display of data like this what other teams like the LCA, EF, Gripen etc have put out..
So pardon me but I am skeptical about the J-10 claims and counterclaims.
Nick_76India may have a first-rate air force, but the terms first-world and third-world deal with economics, not military strength.
Whats the point in bringing in an economy topic in an AF discussion? Secondly, whilst not first rate or third world, the size of the Indian economy is indisputable so is its capex (which by % of GDP is still lower than its key rival./s). Either ways, India has enough to run its current show.
Nick_76Give me a break! Indian territory had pakistani soldiers squatting with Stingers – so despite the target being in Indian territory the IAF flew over Pakistani airspace :p to achieve surprise at that :p – did they not worry about Pakistani radars picking them up — and what were the pakistani soldiers in pakistans territory that they were flying over carrying – flowers – instead of stingers. Was this special manouvre of flying over enemy space to bomb your own territory just for Tiger Hill or for all the missions flown?
I continue to be surprised how little you know of this conflict- in fact I am presently wondering whether it is even worth proceeding with this..
Heard of jamming? Yes, the Indian EW ops were aimed at blanking out your PAFs radar network. At Kargil, the alt differential between a mountain peak and a fighters ingress route was often less than 10 k feet and would dip to 5k feet. Which brought fighters into MANPAD range. Obviously the IAF didnt want this, and sought to find new vectors to hammer your troops…err militants..the ironic part was that many terrain features on your sides were not occupied by AD detachments..whereas the forward deployed units deep into IA territory were ready..
The IAF did this on many occasions. Formations with escorts (A2A) and EW assets were deployed and used..
The PAF could not intervene.
What should really strike home for you is the fact that the IAF was hammering PA positions and your PAF watched- why? Were the people attacked expendable? Why no aim at intervention, tryng to score a quick couple of kills and then trumpet it as a PR victory? Think..
This may well be the Indian version of events – excuse me for being a little sceptical.
All the areas bombed by the IAF were in Indian Territory – the PAF going to defend those targets would have been a clear act of aggression and agravated many fold the existing diplomatic pressure – hence PAF defended its airspace and did not go any further. If PAF went and bombed its side of LOC into the stone age – would it be justified in claiming that the IAF had chickened out of a fight?
Actually the Indian version of events is that we were very well behaved and didnt cross the LOC. Food for public consumption and international lobbying.
If there were Indian troops inside Pakistan, and they were attacked by the PAF, IAF would be there. Period.
The fact is that at Kargil, your boys werent. That they werent, is partly because they were unprepared. So if they “chickened out of a fight”- your words not mine, that was a significant factor.
The biggest problem for Pakistan is your army centricity and utter lack of any practical joint ops..the PAF was kept out of the loop in Kargil..not that they could have done much otherwise, but still…the Navy didnt keep them aware of the Atlantique mission..
Hence each of your service fights its own battles and suffers losses piecemeal without adequate support from the others.
Nick_76Its a deteriorating margin at best. India will likely attempt to develop its indigenous technologies, leaving sources of funding for Russia hard. It is hard to hold on to a lead when your best scientists head for the west.
China has a way of purchasing both foreign built technology and attempting to develop its own indigenous models. While the first production batches of the J-10 may depend on Russian technology, replacement indigenous parts are already developed.
The WS10A is in some respects superior substitute to the AL31, providing a higher thrust/weight ratio and lower cost.
Considering that Sukhoi engineers have themselves admitted that J-11s manufactured in China are better made then the Su-27s in Russia, the future of Russia’s aerospace industry looks grim.
Gentlemen, I wonder where all this misplaced belief comes from. For all the easy manner in which you write off Russia, the JF-17 and J-10 would not be flying without their engine, design and avionics help. The KJ-2000 would have had to make do with a lighter aircraft. And so on..their fingerprints are over a variety of projects in Asia, whether it be India, China etc
Its a fact of life that Russias industry – despite immense challenges- is still top tier. It is developing a fifth gen fighter project with a new powerplant, avionics and if push came to shove, it would fund it. Its not because it is seeking a rational compromise via development partners to pick up a funding share for either that or a lighter one (which would sustain a firm) and its emphasis on strategic forces.
There is a long way to go, before any Asian country or in fact many western ones, approach the depth of experience and expertise Russia has built up in a range of aerospace and military equipment across the board.
Let us be rational and acknowledge this.
Sign In
