Nick,
Let me tell you few things here.

1) I have no problem admitting repeated invasions of India at the hands of muslims creating social problems for natives. But then saying it is just muslim invasions that are responsible is very simplistic view. It has been 60000 years or so modern humans embarked outside africa and colonized the world. They fought , destroyed and sometimes assamilated each other. Looking at the history of evil(that is violence) in the light of one single religion is just like going into a haystack and picking one stick. I diasgree with this notion.

farooq, again you seek to both mischaracterise what has been written and the reality.

any colonial venture into a previously integrated society causes severe problems.

pizarros ventures in south america decimated the native population. similarly, the advent of islam in the indian subcontinent had a very severe impact on the local populace. but it didnt stop there.

repeated violence was committed on the native population to convert them by the sword.

by todays terms, it would be termed as a holocaust. please dont seek to explain that away as something which is hard to determine.

at the aggregate level, every event is minor, but at the actual level, these things do matter.

if they didnt, jews wouldnt remember ww2, armenians wouldnt do the same viz turkeys actions and so on and so forth.

especially when these events have a bearing even today.

My take on the issue is that *any* invasion would cause problems for the group of people actually conquered. What about the early tribes from central asia when they first came to Sub continent? was it not at the expense of dravidian culture?

as i already told qsaark, there is no scientific evidence of any mythological aryan invasion. and as one of the so called dravidians who were oppressed by the aryans, i dismiss this absurd fantasy.

What about English when they came to subcontinent, i am sure you would see creation of Pakistan as their consipracy and biggest mistake (and i would naturaly disagree with that). Why don’t we hear about such episodes from you folks?

au contraire. if i have a bone to pick with the Raj, it is about their inhuman treatment of all indians and the complete economic impoverishment of the region. and your ancestors were indians.

i dont grudge you your country- you are welcome to it. i would say that the events of the past 60 years have amply proven that despite the horrific events at partition, the basic theme itself was sound.

secondly, we do talk about all the above, but the british themselves are at the forefront of dissecting what went on during the raj and have repeatedly stated that colonialism was immoral and unjust.

but instead, we see no such pov from the islamic community, which regards the murder and pillage committed against non muslims as “never happened” or “others did it too, why pick on us”?

neither of the above, is palatable, or frankly logical or even acceptable.

its not just restricted to india but worldwide.

qsaarks posts began with the claim that muslims are victimized, because in todays world it is the norm to do so!

as if!

Has there been no assamilation of the same “muslim barbarians” in Indian subcontinet? How do you explain that when a pathan chief conquered and plundered Moghul capital in later days and gouged out his eyes it was local marathas who saved him and killed his nemesis? If it was not their king then why would they do it?

it is not a question of assimilation or non assimilation. you are talking to the wrong person here farooq, i am an indian of a state which practises assimilation to the extent that it can.

if we didnt believe in assimilation, would we not have done what pakistan did and created our own version of an exclusivist state. would india have so many muslims in its govt, services or even elect them as its president otherwise.

the point is not whether muslims cannot integrate. the point is that some muslims dont.

and these muslims again quote scripture, point to history.

tell me, why are pakistans missiles named ghauri, ghaznavi, and babur?

who were these people? were they not bigots, murderers and pillagers?

why should you expect the non muslim to forget his history and not be aware of what some muslims did because they were convinced they were doing so in the service of islam?

why is the non muslim always at fault here, is islam unable to withstand critique?

It is human history, people moved about killed ,conquered and in some cases helped and made peace. Sometimes assamilation and sometimes some groups were wiped out.

so why deny it? what prevents you and qsaark from acknowledging the antics of islamic rulers and the holocausts committed by them?

is it asking for too much for you to admit the same? if you guys can constantly complain about how the world treats you, where is the other side of the coin, about what islam did to the world?

2)I totally understand qsaark started it and i would rather we be discussing this in General discussions. But some of your whitewash against muslims just dumbfounds me.The way you generalize is appaling i am sorry to say. I hate extermists just as much as you do. Any sort of extermist. Muslim,hindu,christian. You seem to be actually defending hindu extremeists, where as i have spent quite some time debating with same animal on our side.

what whitewash? your pakistani brethren keep attacking me, my religion and country based on islam, islam, and more islam and you expect us indians to take it lying down?

look in the mirror farooq, you and your boys are obsessed with islam, you cant even admit that crimes have been committed by muslims which have led to the present state of affairs.

calling me names wont do- if there are folks more extreme than you, than i wonder!!

see the above, attacking me on my religion, calling me an extremist and then an animal. wow- and you are a representative of tolerant islam?

if so, it bears out the fact that it is your fanaticism leads you to dub anyone who opposes your radical pov as an extremist and to attack their religion.

you chaps cant stand criticism, out comes the name calling. but you have the gall to call yourself tolerant!

3)Regarding Satti, tell me was it not a practice that was done during peace time even in pre-islamic India? Did it not exist in any form? Muslim warfare could have affected one part a group or period. You can’t have a bride killing herself just like that. During 1857 in delhi alot of muslim ladies jumped into water wells to protect themselves. It does not start a tardition that would become part of individual families (wome burning themselves when husband dies).

son, please do one thing- educate yourself. i have already written the issues regarding the topic in depth, far more than i would despite you and your cohorts personal attacks again and again.

the question is not of when and where it originated, but of how widespread it was and what made it so entrenched.

qsaark attempted to portray it as some endemic flaw of hinduism which muslim rulers were noble enough to stop. which was absolute balderdash.

your knowledge of medieval india leaves a lot to be desired as well. the scale and depth of devastation was such that to post it would be equal to making the more peaceable lose their dinner and lunch. in such a clime and scenario, desparate measures became the norm and stayed that way.

4)I did not insult you in anyway. I do see some of things that you wrote as gross generalizations and insluting towards my religion , people and country. I would rather sit here and talk about peace with you or learn something from you useful or even share something i know. Just in early 1900s europeans were cutting each other thorats and world saw massive carnages in WW1 and WW2. Now you can’t even imagine that happeneing. I do believe same could be achived in Sub continent. It will only happen when you and I will desist from pointing fingers and finding “inherint inhuman flaws” in eachother. I have had a Sikh roommate and several hindu colleagues at work and even firends. I never had to explain or prove i am not some violent monster who wants to do all those things you accuse muslims of. If in actualy practical life millions of people like me can exist on both sides then Subcontinent does not have to be hostage or mindless violence.

[/QUOTE]

of course you have been insulting me throughout. name calling has been endemic in yours and qsaarks posts. why? because i had the temerity to call you both out on your mischaracterisations and statements.

i could respond in the same way, but frankly- thats the difference, i attempt to debate, not call you a muslim extremist and so on and so forth.

but that is exactly what you & your cohorts have done.

all i can say is that if this is the manner in which you behave with individuals, you have a long way to go before you can attain even a semblance of maturity.

So there has been no blood shed between Hindu Monarchs, tribes, castes? India is devoid of this glorious tradition, correct?

India has been devoid of the glorious tradition of attacking only in the name of religion. please wake us up when you can find hindu tribesmen attacking mecca, despoiling the kaaba and making its remains into hindu temples.

Which pogrom are you talking about dude? Seriously go visit Sindh and you will find enough Hindus and Muslims living side by side. I have my origins from interior Sindh. Not a single hindu was killed in our area at the time of partition. My Grandfather and others not only protected entire families of hindus but ensured the safety of the ones who wanted to go to India. Some even came back to sell their properties and take back their belongings they had entrusted on your evil “muslaman”. How many hindus were standing there protecting Baburi Mosque is well known to entire world.

i appreciate your familys personal actions but may I suggest that you educate yourself about the wider reality?

shri gurbachan singh talibs book on partition, “muslim leagues attack” et al, on the partition.

Sind the Sikh population was not large, though the Hindus formed about 30% of-the population of the province. Out of the total non-Muslim population of 14 Lakhs, now1 only about 2 lakhs are left in Sind, the rest having come to India as refugees. The turning out of non-Muslims from Sind is very amply illustrative of the naked policy of turning out of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan, for no other reason whatever except that they were not Muslims. There was a policy of systematic terrorization of Hindus. Their business premises were looted, their womenfolk molested, and the avenues of normal respectable life entirely closed to them. Thus, through terror and intimidation, within the period of less than a year twelve lakhs out of the fourteen lakhs of Hindus in Sind have been forced to migrate to India. This has happened in spite of the fact that in the words of Shri Mansukhani, Secretary, Sind Congress Refugee Relief Committee, New Delhi, �not one single Muslim lost his life at the hands of Hindus in any act of retaliation or self-defence, not to talk of any act of aggression; but where from the first day of the birth of Pakistan, Hindus have been systematically done to death, by the knife, by the bullet. by the throwing out of the windows and doors of running trains. The object has been one and the goal clear. Pakistan has desired that it should be a theocratic state in the sense that all its citizens should be Muslims. This battle has been remorselessly waged on one long front of Western Pakistan.�

Hindus� houses were forcibly occupied, in Karachi and everywhere else, their property and land snatched from them, and no option left for them but to, seek a safer life free from unbearable indignities, in India.

Other portions from Shri Mansukhani�s article, quoted above. are: –

�Soon after August 15, 1947, was organised the ousting of Hindus and Sikhs from their residences and business premises, from their agricultural lands and industrial concerns.

�No Hindu�s house was his castle, he had to retreat at the point of the dagger and run away from the back-door. The Police of the Province and the War-time established Rent Control Department helped �legally� to throw out the members of the minority community.

Traces of Hinduism Erased

�It is not an uncommon phenomenon for prominent Hindus who are sticking on to the soil of Sind to be accosted while going about even on the main streets by Muslims and threateningly asked to either embrace Islam or go out of Pakistan.

�Hindu passengers can travel by railway only for short journeys and during day time and that too at great risk of their lives.

Our Shrines

�Our Gurmandir in Karachi became lately the residence of Sydney Cotton, the smuggler of arms to Nizam�s Hyderabad of yesterday. Most of our religious places, shrines, temples and Gurdwaras have been occupied by Muslims. The scriptures have been destroyed and the valuables have been pilfered and safely appropriated. Some of these places have also been turned into mosques where the Faithful congregate and read their Friday prayers to Allah. All educational institutions are similarly occupied and converted into the Schools and Colleges for Muslims.�

(�The Tribune�-January 16, 1949)

As for the Sikhs, their elimination and extermination began at about the same time as in West Punjab. By August all Sikhs in large towns had left Sind, and came over to the Punjab. It was not infrequent for trains carrying these Sikh refugees to be attacked on the way. On the 2nd of August, Sikhs were attacked in several villages in Nawabshah District.

On the 1st September, 1947 one train was stopped at Nawabshah, and the Sikh passengers attacked. Of these 15 were killed, and 17 injured.

The only Sikhs in Sind after August, were those in the interior-small tradesmen, pedlars and craftsmen. These began to be evacuated. Their condition was described in news agency reports as being extremely miserable and pitiable, as they could not ply any trade, and were in the last stage of destitution.

So much were the Muslims indoctrinated with the gospel of hate preached over years by the Muslim League, that on the 6th January, 1948, long after killing had stopped in East Punjab, a terrible massacre of evacuee Sikhs, awaiting embarkation for India occurred at Karachi. That this was no isolated incident of its kind in Pakistan is witnessed by the terrible Gujrat massacre of the 11th January, 1948, and the Parachinar massacre of the 23rd January, 1948. These three huge massacres of Sikhs and Hindus occurred in such quick succession at a time when all attacks on the Muslims in Indian territory had ceased three months before.

Certain details of this above mentioned Karachi massacre are of interest as revealing the conspiracy, cynicism and heartlessness of the Government of Pakistan, in the matter of getting Sikhs murdered.

As for the details of the massacre, the District Magistrate�s report from Karachi is reproduced below:

�Communal trouble started in Karachi today when 184 Sikhs arrived from Shikarpur by the morning train. From the station they went to a Gurdwara near Ratan Talao. A mob of nearly 8,000 gathered on the arrival of the Sikhs and surrounded the Gurdwara and set fire to it, and started stabbing and killing and a number of persons2 were killed,�

In the town of Karachi �there was looting in several quarters and there were four cases of arson.�3

There was looting on the next day as well, in the houses of Hindus. The situation was described in �an appeal�, issued by the Editors of several Karachi newspapers as �appalling� while admitting that some Muslims gave shelter to �the Hindu victims of mob frenzy.�

In the Gurdwara, where the massacre took place, women and children were also killed, as admitted by the Sind Premier in his statement.

The result of the disturbances of January 6 was described in �The Civil and Military Gazette� in these words:

�There was negligible loss of life suffered by the minority community (Hindus) compared to the looting that took place throughout the city�� The lives of members of the minority community (Hindus) were saved at the expense of their property.�

About 10,000 Hindus had to be kept in refugee camps, and Hindus had to be evacuated early to India, to save them from being murdered by Muslims. Looting went on uninterruptedly. So bold and open was this loot, that police and employees of the Chief Court of Sind openly participated in it. The Chief Court building was used as a dump for this loot. The Chief justice, an Englishman, his patience exhausted, had at last to intervene and stop the loot from being stacked at least in the Chief Court Building. This was the limit of the collapse of the law and good government in Pakistan.

Further facts in the situation are:

(1) About 800 Sikhs were killed in Karachi and not 184, as stated in the Pakistan communique.

(2) Not a word of regret was expressed by any responsible person in Pakistan over this tremendous loss of Sikh life. The Sind Premier made only the insulting statement that the sight of these Sikhs �provoked� the Muslims and only added the still more insulting directive that Sikhs be not brought to Karachi �in open carriages.� The Premier�s statement also makes it clear that no police precautions were taken for the protection of these Sikhs, whose lives were evidently so cheap that any one was at liberty to take them without the Pakistan Government moving its little finger.

The Governor-General of Pakistan, Mr. Jinnah, who sent a message of sympathy for the sufferers, did not so much as mention the Sikhs, who had been killed in overwhelming numbers. All that he said was that he had sympathy for the Hindus in their losses.

This was symptomatic of the attitude of the Pakistan Government, which did not regard Sikh life as worthy of any kind of protection and as meriting any sympathy.

The masses in Pakistan knew very well what their Government thought of any attack made on the Sikhs.

Jinnah�s statement was, furthermore an attempt to create a rift between Hindus and Sikhs, which the Muslims have been trying to, by posing to dislike the Hindus less than the Sikhs.

All these happenings occurred at a time when in India, Mahatma Gandhi undertook his last fast to get better treatment for the Indian Muslims. That was the response in Pakistan to the Mahatma�s gesture, and the faithfully carrying out of the Mahatma�s instructions by Hindus and Sikhs. Exactly when Delhi was being made safe for Muslims, in Karachi 800 Sikhs were massacred, and all Hindus looted and despoiled, had to move into refugee camps.

Footnotes:

1January, 1949.

2These were Sikhs exclusively.

3This is the Pakistan report of widespread looting of Hindu houses that went on unchecked in Karachi for a day or longer.

kindly visit india. the sindhi community in india is still traumatized by the effects of partition.

You need to go visit Lahore and see how openly and without any problems Sikh Yatri visit their shrines. Or for that matter go visit Panja Sahib. And this is just half century after the terrible carnage at the time of partition.

and of course, this has nothing to do with the fact that the ISI was using this to bring in sikhs for creating an insurgency in india?

please, enough of the fun already.

i can post what a sikh talks about his visit to pakistan and the reasons therein. do you wish me to?

Yeah you are right. I hope Irfan Pathan and his family survives the next Modi adventure.

they are indians, just like modi is, a difficult concept for you to grasp. their nation comes before their religion.

Nick,
It is really amazing to see how for you, your entire history starts with “musalman” coming and spoiling the milk and honey land of hindustan and teaching poor innocent hindus every evil thing including things like Satti. I am sure a little more spin and you can also blame them for caste system too.

sorry, thats absolute bs. india wasnt a land of milk and honey, but there is little doubt that the advent of islam in india did cause severe social problems.

i can talk about the caste system in detail, including how the present indian govt has failed in eliminating it, but i doubt you would understand the points. its rather irrelevant as is, as well.

You spend quite some energy on this forum and almost every other post has to have your hatred for “musalman” dripping from it one way or the other. If it was bharat rakshak i am sure i wont be too surprised but i am because how blatantly and consistantly you are able to do it here.

talk about your inability to debate, farooq. qsaark began with the issues, i am replying to him. if you cant stand debate, please dont take part in the same.

i have no hatred for “musalmans”, but i have no love lost for extremists who seek to whitewash the historical record either. having a keen interest in history, it just so follows.

Every thing i have read so far about Satti does not in anyway blames muslims for promoting this evil practice. Quite a few muslim rulers are actually known for banning it in India. This is the very first link that i was able to find on the origins of Satti written by Dr. Jyotsna Kamat

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/women/sati/whysati.htm

“The Mahasati (the great Sati) or the Sahagamana (joint departure) system of a cremating the woman alive on the death of her husband is an ancient custom in India. Scholars of the Puranas trace the origins to the suicide of Satidevi in the Yajnakunda (sacrificial fireplace) of Lord Brahma, while a few attribute it to the pre-caste Vedic system of Indian society. In the Indian mythology of the Mahabharat, there is the instance of Madri dying on the funeral pyre of husband Pandu, leaving the children to the care of the first wife Kunti. The feminists proclaim the Sati system as a cruel institution established by men against the womankind, while the lower-caste in India have felt it as another means of torture taxed on them by the upper-caste Brahmins. “

my dear farooq, the kamat link is maintained by a family who have obtained the information from the net. please refer to some actual historical records on the matter. do you wish me to post on some actual texts?

kindly try jadunath sarkars tomes on the subject, including his history of aurangzeb (vol 1- 5).

the issue is not of self sacrifice– which i already explained to qsaark, as your own text explains, even today there is no firm conclusion on how and where this practise originated from.

the issue is what caused it to become widespread! and therein lies the issue. no surprises that the act of sati was found in todays Bengal, some parts of UP and the North. wonder why!

what, do you think happened to these regions after being constantly despoiled in terms of holy war?

and since you have taken the liberty of telling me what my “holy book” claims, you might also ask my fellow indians why they arent following the holy book today, and why it is unknown.

fyi, sati means “chaste woman”- thats it. any woman who committed a great sacrifice – for whatever purpose, is a sati.

copy paste from the net apart, ask me if you have any doubts.

and since you have a problem with reading context, qsaark claimed muslim rulers did hindus a favor by seeking to abolish this practise, which is a bit rich when it was their warfare that made the practise, including jauhar entrenched.

Your holy book and history mentions this practice but in your wisdom you ahve to find something to do with your bad evil “muslim”. Amazing stuff that after this kind of thought process you have the gal to make fun of others for being indoctirnated and brainwashed. To me your zeal and hatred is no different than any taliban’s.

i appreciate your bile and venom, but frankly, at my age its more amusing than offensive. i also note how you conveniently forgot to mention small issues like the Jauhars committed by Rajputs many times over.

as i said, you gents dont have the ability to take any criticism or honest critique without resorting to name calling.

wonderful display of tolerance indeed!

I have the same advice for you. Keep doing whatever you are doing and don’t interfere in other’s matters. Indian troops are as much involved in promoting terrorism in its own backyard as well as in Pakistan through Afghan border. And before posting, at least correct your sentence structure so we can understand what you want to say.

care to point out one report of indian troops infiltrating pak without pak sources? no, you are attacking india, attacking the whole world via sending various terror cells, yet you have issues with the world asking you to clean up your own act?! why?!

as i said, what pak does is paks issue- within paks borders. but when has pak restricted itself there? please tell me as to how many indian non muslims have been caught in terror crimes across the world as compared to pak?

INo where I have said that I have changed my mind and that Pakistan should spend much needed money on its arms or nuclear program. I have said if Pakistan is facing hindu fanatics, Pakistan should have a credible detterent.

go ahead, knock yourself out.

I myself is a molecular biologist. Don’t tell me about science or DNA. At best your mentioned reports are controversial. I can however, explain nitty gritty of DNA mapping and its short coming if you insist on it.

sure, now you know more than the entire scientific world. everything that doesnt match your pov is controversial. wonderful.

Isolated incidents carry no weight. A lot happened during Greek invasions. Infact even before that, India was never one country rather divided into different states ruled by different rulers. All of these hindu rulers were fighting with each other and shedding blood. Why you don’t talk about that. However, what you are doing is trying to magnify those fateful events and associate them with only muslims. This is sign of immense hate you have for muslims.

your whitewashes are amusing. indian rulers fought for territory, muslims fought for religion and conversion. if indian rulers were as fanatical as muslims were, most of south asia would be hindu. other religions wouldnt even exist. do think of that. in india, many rulers converted to buddhism because of their distaste for war- of course, when islam came, they were the first to fall. i dont have a “immense hate for muslims” but i do take dissemblers who routinely make false claims to task.

so in india, we have the foundation of hinduism, sikhism, buddhism, jainism. all these religions exist india today and are flourishing. now tell me, how many of these still exist in pakistan and what are the numbers? what happened to the minorities in pakistan qsaark? were they beamed to mars or something?

I do not have any distaste of idols. In my study I have goddess Saraswati sculpted in sandal wood, gifted to me by my PhD supervisor. He was a Tamil Hindu and I have great respect for his religion and himself. There is no denial of any sort. Unlike some idiots, I consider Mahmood Ghaznavi as a bandit. His invasion of India was nothing but for loot and plunder. However, this is not uncommon for those days. These sort of things were rather a norm in dark and middle ages.

first, no issues about idols or the like. but i would say that most of your compatriots do have these hangups, kudos on overcoming them.

now lets get to mahmood et al. ghaznavi was a devout muslim and his own accounts remark upon that. he invaded india not just for loot and plunder but to spread his faith, what he considered to be his divine duty. and no, these kind of things were NOT common in ancient india. even those who waged devastating war were not spared epithets, like ashoka- but he converted to buddhism and never tried to spread it by force. see the difference? in contrast, almost each and every muslim ruler in india used force to subjugate non muslims. and it was shia and sunni alike who did so, the historical record bears it out. and fyi, the idiots whom you are referring to would be your own establishment, since they revere ghazni, ghauri and the rest of these bigots.

has india named missiles after plunderers?

Those muslim rulers were muslim only by name and advanced their own agenda in the name of Islam. Anybody can take the shelter of his/her religion for hiding his mistakes. This doesn’t mean his religion has asked him to do so. My distaste is for stereotyping muslims with every bad things. If you keep balance, I would have no problem listening to you.

the problem is and has been that the vast majority of muslims have allowed such rulers to do whatever they wished in the name of islam. but when non muslims raise the issue, you explain it away as saying its not part of islam!

but it is. will you allow me to point out how from the beginning of islam, ie the days of mohammad, such rules of war were formulated and implemented?

because you consider these people bad muslims, but truth be told, they would say the same of you. they did what they thought was right. now should i blame them? or point out that the faith itself needs some aspects of reform?

whats happening today? why do you think hundreds of thousands of muslims are constantly engaged in conflict with every other nation and religious group? do you think they are only victims or that they too had a part to play, as it takes two hands to clap? please introspect.

see, i am as willing to consider your pov, but the problem is that if i criticize your pov or point out logical inconsistencies, you call me names and take it to as far as a nuclear deterrent. i am somewhat amazed at my own power.

[QUOTE]You know nothing about Islam. [/uote]

au contraire, i do know a lot. but i can share what i know with you, provided you can keep a level head and not resort to muck raking.

Both the Moses and Jesus are considered as prophet and we respect them as much as we respect muhammed. I have seen people here who have tattooed Jesus on their pubic area and on their buttocks. Now if this is how they treat their savior or messiah, expecting that they will respect my prophet is nothing but insanity. If a non-muslim says something out of hateret or disgust or simply because he knows nothing, he is not to be punished. However, Rushdie calls himself a muslim. This is indeed a crime that a muslim does this disgusting act. This is the law of Islam and I don’t have to defend it.

tell me something, why should these people, by default respect your saviour or messiah? dont they have a right to be as stupid or whatever, as long as they dont force their views onto you?

if moses and jesus are as respected as mohammad, why is it that most websites on the net and even many muslims, keep spewing hate against jews and christians?

if rushdie tomorrow says that he has a right to his opinion, and he lives in the west as a western citizen what right do you have to enforce muslim law on him? who made you judge or jury?

lastly, so what if islam says something or not, doesnt humanity and secular law triumph over religious law?

please think.

There is no gender concession on certain acts.

of course there are. taslima, ayaan, irshad and many others have made this point repeatedly. they are all muslims who have chafed under what islam asks of them as women. dont they have a right to be heard?
you told me about ambedkar, did i say ambedkar didnt have a right to his opinion?

By the way, even Bengal Govt is having problems keeping her there.

they are having problems keeping her there because muslims are threatening to kill her.

Disinformation wont work here dude.

please tell that to yourself! your entire post has been littered with it.

This inhumane practice was started by Dakshayani, who sacrificed herself, unable to bear the humiliation of her (living) husband Shiva by her father Daksha.

ok, lets assume dakshayani existed and you knew this occurred, can you kindly tell me as to if this were the case, and if there was a theological justification for sati, why there are no sati cases now in india? in 60 years of independence, only 2 such events have occurred, both were prosecuted and thats that. so how come hindus suddenly forgot about Dakshayani? have hindus in india forgotten religion?

now tell me, how many cases of honor killing occur in pakistan in comparison year after year, and what does islam demand of women who fail to respect islamic law?

This happened in a time when there was nothing as Islam. There is mention of this practice in Rigveda, Mahabharta as well as in the chronicles from the time of Alexander the great. This only tells the status of a hindu widow in the society.

actually it doesnt. try try again. for one who claims to know a lot about hindu society, you fail at each attempt, but never mind. what you are referring to above is *voluntary self sacrifice* which has a long tradition in hindu society and several civilizations. jain monks even starve themselves to death. that is something which even modern law is struggling to deal with, the right of a person to take his/her own life. even religion has no clear answers there.

but lets see, when and where did the status of a hindu widow become so desparate that her immediate and extended family could no longer take care of her and she had to kill herself…the answer is jauhar, which made the above a widespread practise. now deny it as you will but lets go below..

And the Jauhar sati you are talking about is only practiced in Rajasthan and MP was the collective suicide of a community facing certain defeat in war. It consisted of the mass immolation of women, children, the elderly and the sick, at the same time that their fighting men died in battle (also against other hindus). This was not only restricted to the women because muslim invaders were coming to take them.

jauhar was practised against muslims, the most famous instance being against akbar when the rajputs went out against him, and their wives killed themselves. and then there is the famous tale of padmini and her death as well. will you deny that as well?

see, there is no doubt that sati itself became an abused tradition, it is recorded by hindus themselves and was put an end to by hindus themselves. and they were able to do so because they found nothing in the religious doctrine that supported it. but the million $ question is why during british rule?
why was a raja roy able to do it then, as compared to when the moghuls were around? the answer is stark, as much as you may deny it.

apart from akbar, your enlightened muslim rulers would slaughter any hindu who became a community leader and tried for reformation. take a look at what happened to the sikh community and how they became a khalsa!

again, who introduced slavery in india with a tie into the arab slave market, qsaark?

should i post the links again of how women were treated in islamic india qsaark? they were chattel. do you wish me to prove the direct linkage between how they were treated and what islam commands the believer to do with the non believers? what of the banu quraysh tribe and their women?

No, you don’t make me laugh. It was banned by the Portuguese in 1515 in Goa, then by Dutch and the French in Chinsurah and Pondicherry. Attempts to limit or stop the practice had been made by individual British officers of east India company. English missionaries William Carey and William Wilberforce both were involved in this long before Lord William Bentinck. It was only in 1812 that Raja Rammohan Roy started his campaign against the practice.

but i am amused at your attempts to spin this. the only successful attempt was made by raja roy, and the attempt was so successful that to this day sati is a “was in books so we read it ” phenomenon in india.

so who did the job? missionaries who cared two hoots about stopping the practise, rather conversions which is what they were interested in, or raja roy, who campaigned for it within his community and succeeded.
so copy paste as much as you wish, but the reality is different.

You are again twisting the facts. Nobody was forcing the hindus to convert to Islam or to any other religion but the inequality of their own religion. Having a muslim president, Dalit prime miniter or what not does’nt mean that all is well. My own supervisor married a Brahman lady. She was abandoned by her family and instructed never to see her family. So it is not all propaganda, there are facts behind it that low cast hindus are treated badly. This is also complete disinformation that low class hindus suffered the most.

complete fabrication indeed, so all the records of hundreds of thousands of people being forced to convert are lies! why, ghazni, ghauri, aurangzeb, jehangir who all proudly write of their success at forcing conversions are lies! why qsaark was right there, he knows it better than them! why, the sikhs were not persecuted to the extent that a guru had his kids murdered in front of his eyes, and was then slaughtered himself when he refused to convert.

please qsaark, stop dissembling. i already posted the evidence, the historical record is clear- massacres and forced conversions were the norm. as regards your supervisor, dont you think we are old enough to recognise when sudden events appear in a debate, so as to favour your pov?

and please dont tell me about what hindus feel about muslims- i could tell you a lot about how well islam is liked amongst different sections, and even the govt of india has noted that in communal situations, the police force deployed, when it has “low class hindus” tends to be very …strict in dealing with muslims, an euphemism for over enthusiasm.

all is indeed not well, but we are getting there, in urban india i dont give a damn about caste or creed, neither do my acquaintances or coworkers. intermarriages are increasingly common. but tell me, how many low caste converts are prime ministers in pakistan or presidents? low caste hindus in pakistan are treated like dirt, and called bhangee. any pak forum is littered with curses on the basis of caste. in india you do that, and you will be liable to be hauled up per law. and tell me, if indeed islam is so egalitarian why are sunnis killing shias and why are shias killing sunnis? why are ahmediyaas not even able to hold govt office in pak? why are those of the bahaai faith persecuted? in delhi, we even have a huge bahaai temple- i have visited there and prayed. tell me, why are there no bahaais in pakistan, qsaark?

will you support an ahmediyyas right to call himself muslim? or a bahaais?

Just to make people fool. Question is, how much these so called minority leaders have brought a change in the life of the people they represent.

“yes, just to make people fool.” that is the difference- between an islamic state and a democracy. we know we are in for the long haul and we’ll work for it. should i show the impact a person like apj kalam has had on indians? or azim premji? we respect them, and nobody cares about their religion because they dont force their religion on others!

now please tell me ONE minority leader in pakistan who has made a difference to muslims and non muslims alike. dont give me govt figureheads like bhagwandas who even had to swear an oath to islam when taking his office.

Good for you. Keep working on it without blaming muslim for your miseries.

we dont blame muslims for “our miseries”, but we dont stand for misrepresentations by muslims who prompty declare themselves as victims and absolve themselves of responsibility either.

every muslim has a right to be an indian citizen, but he is expected to do his duty by country first, not religion.

first comes india,.

Only because there was a lot of foreign pressure.

india cares two hoots for foreign pressure. tell me, who is busy listening to the US etc now? india or pak? countries like india and china have maintained an independent foreign policy, we do what we must because we must, not because someone tells us to do so.

compare and contrast to pak for instance.

I do have figures for all that. Are you not missing 1st and 2nd world war.

wars fought on the basis of state rights and national aims, not religion. get the difference?

Christian slaughtered Christian and non-christian.

and non christians were any better? do you think all indian troops in ww1 and ww2 were christian? what about the japanese? what about the atheist soviet union?

Don’t bother to impress me, just keep working on improving it.

i am not bothered about impressing you, all i can do is open your blinkers of victimhood. introspect, it will do you good.

About Shia and Sunni. You don’t have clue of what you are talking about. There have been confirmed reports of bombs planted by Brits and US troops in mosques of shia’s and sunni’s to escalate violence

oh really? so muqtada al sadr is a brit or american? so al qaeda are americans? what about pakistan? are the shia murders and sunni murders a conspiracy too?

my goodness- cant you even admit the basic facts about islam without glossing them over? you are not talking to someone who is unaware. as far back as medieval times, shias were killing sunnis and vice versa. aurangzebs campaigns against the deccan were as motivated by his hatred of the infidel shias as they were for territory. and the trend continues today, and you deny it?

. This is all done by the invaders as their agenda is to divide and rule. Everybody knows the role of foreign powers in souring the relationships of Arabs with Iranians and trying to spin it around Shia Sunni problem.

i see. and the ayatollahs of iran had no role to play? its all the foreign hand, is it?
has it struck you that irans dislike of the arabs is because they feel sunnis are forcing their views on shia iran and vice versa?

I just brought this point to show you that hindus are also killing hindus. Now if it is in the name of religious differences or social, killing is killing. Most of this behaviour comes from ignorance and illiteracy. So blaming a religion for this is very wrong.

hindus kill a couple of hundred hindus a year. muslims are killing thousands in the name of islam, and then their fellow muslims. where is the equivalence?

how can you deny this?

and secondly when a religion is constantly used ever since its foundation as a tool for violence, then its worth remarking that the religion may need reform. its plain logic.

No you are wrong. You are talking about the muslims of Pashtun belt. They are tribal people and have their own tribal laws. Yes, they are not pro-women but that is only restricted to the tribal areas. In rest of the country, women get education; do jobs if they find it necessary. Regarding the punishments, it is not my decorum to do so. However, if somebody who is living in Pakistan and commit blasphemy, he has to face the court of law. Regarding producing 4 male witnesses etc. There is a misunderstanding among the muslim scholars. They are debating on that and will find a way. If the religion is followed in its true spirit, there is no hindrance advancing in the future.

why are pashtoons being singled out here? are they not muslims? should i post about how paks react when they visit india and see “women in jeans” going about without issues? see, there is a huge problem in pak with the treatment of women and unlike india, your religious leaders are exacerbating the issue. whether it be punjab or nwfp, pakistani leaders are again quoting islam for their deeds. and how did you suddenly get decorum when we discuss pak? you had no problems telling us all about india, is the spotlight too harsh because we are discussing islam now?

Now watch your mouth.

why?

65% of Americans are even more critical on Bush policies than I am.

that doesnt mean you attack seal on the basis of his nationality and his national decisions.

It has nothing to do with the tax paying. I am not a bagger who has been taken care by American tax payer’s money. I myself pay tax and for that I get freedom of speech. And this is not the fault of Pakistanis that American tax payer money is being spent in Pakistan or any other country. This is the fault of US policy makers, who, instead of spending that money in fixing problems in USA, spending it on their foreign adventures.

oh i see. so from rants against neocons and the evil americans, you are now a taxpayer who is upset with the govt. nice change.

So before you talk nonsense and attack me personally, bother to come here and see how a civilized society looks like and how people live here.

i have lived all over the world and am living in a civilized country and society. its called india. now why arent you living in pakistan, the paradise that it is? put your money where your mouth is?

you have no problems telling us how lousy india and america are, how lousy hindus and christians are, how islam has no problems, how good pakistan is and how muslims are mischaracterised by anyone, but why dont you live in pakistan then?

My previous posts are reference of my opinion that Pakistan has to get rid of military govt, establish democracy, free judiciary, spend on education etc. Extremism is a problem but this is not only a muslim problem. Extermists are in every country and in every religion.

your previous posts dont suggest it at all. you keep whining about how the world is not fair to pakistan and islam.

there is not one iota of thought in your posts about how the muslim community should introspect about what it does to non muslims. instead, you attack my religion and blame others for being neocons.

what does that have to do with anything? suppose i said i was an atheist. then what?

And about Bhutto. In the present heated political situation, she came to Pakistan under a deal brokered by her western patrons. Of course people are angry for what is happening in Pakistan and they know it is all happening because there is not democratic government. People want leaders but they don’t want leaders who are there just to continue Mushrraf’s policies which are basically dictated to him from the Whitehouse.

so assassinating her, and killing some 200 people in the process (till date) is ok?

Indra Gandhi and Rajeev were also assassinated by their own people and one when she was still holding office and other was a former prime minister.

yes, and we went after the murderers and made them pay. i may not like them, but i will tell you that political assassinations are not acceptable. but here you are, justifying them. because in your words, bhutto was a pawn of the US, a country of which you are a citizen of!

You have no clue of the prosperity of Middle Eastern states. You better visit those places and you’ll know what you are talking about.

i have visited them, and i found them to be …interesting. bar the uae, and some states, most of the middle east is headed for a train wreck, given their reliance on easy money from oil revenue and their massive economic problems.

like i said, if thats the prosperity pak is aspiring to…kudos! btw, pak doesnt have oil.

BTW a lot of Indians find their daily bread and butter in these states.

yes, and they suffer massive discrimination as well. indias diaspora are scattered all along the world because of indias socialist planned economys failure. things are improving though.

Your general knowledge seems to be extracted from the texts written in middle ages.

the texts, which according to you never existed right? because they poke huge holes in your claims of a mythical islamic golden age, where non muslims faced no discrimination.

please qsaark, enough already.

Kaduna2003 you have absolutely ZERO idea about BJP RSS or VHP.they are the major opposition party in the Indian parliament!Lol communists in India have killed more people over the years than BJP.

Or could be you dont know the meaning of the word “fanatic”.btw..do you accept there are many faults within Islam?can you critcise the Quran?Or do you have blind support for everything done in the name of Islam?That my friend is the definition of fanatic.

ah, rayrubik. see bjps crime is that it has the guts to stand upto islamic fundamentalists, anyone who does that needs to be wiped out.

as regards criticising mohammad or the quran, you have to be kidding. just look at qsaarks reply- you have to be punished, thats the law.

All you have done in your post is defend the BJP, VHP, RSS and their fellow killers.

oh sure, nasty Indians who stand for elections and dont kill and bomb in the name of Islam. that makes them killers I guess.

btw, what did your peaceful Pakistanis do to Madame Bhutto? Was it another BJP, VHP, RSS etc?

werent you the one who was bs’ing about how peaceful pakistan is compared to terrorist india? well, you showed us dude! you showed us.

And not condemned those terrorists even once. Here is a report about the Guharat riots from the famous indian news outlet that shows how those murderers were invovled in the killings:

yeah sure, those who stand in elections, win and lose equitably and resign thereafter are terrorists!

please spare me the platitudes. your only problem with Gujarat is that the muslims were not on the “winning side” if such a thing can be found.

after all, this is what all this is about.

you care two hoots that there were riots and innocents on both sides were affected.

you are only concerned with how good people of your religion are, and how bad the evil others are.

http://www.thelka.com/story_main35.asp?filename=Ne031107gujrat_sec.asp

Oh please, propoganda from a Leftist newspaper, which in fact handed the election to Modi & co on a platter.

just to show how silly you are, to dredge up the above link which is full of absolute bs, read this:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1136117
http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/29/stories/2007112961901100.htm

the centre, ie the bjps rivals, consider the tehelka sting to be a fabricated one, intended to cause communal dis-harmony.

the fact speaks volumes.

the indian high court, concerned with fabricated stings (your “investigative reports”) has even asked the govt to check the practise!

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070035943&ch=12/14/2007%208:48:00%20PM

even the media admits that several aspects of the judgement/proposal are valid, even though they dont want overbearing interference by any Govt body

the only thing more silly than your motivated muck raking, is your dependence on select sources which of course, depict your “enemy” in the worst possible light.

and that “enemy” is of course, the other. tell you what, india will keep electing the bjp etc as they care two hoots for what pakistanis think of them.

thats why you lot got your own nation. learn to deal with it. and please stay inside your borders and do what you will, and not come over and “Educate us” like you normally do.

Now i have no trouble calling for the elimination of all terrorists be they alquaida or taliban or the hindu terrorists above. They deserve no mercy. But you do have trouble calling a spade a spade. And such denial coming from an educated person like yourself is troubling to see in India.

you have every problem with calling for the elimination of terrorists as long as they are muslim. then they are not terrorists, but “freedom fighters”. they are innocents, they are victims.

like i said, not one word about the people who started the riots and what they did, not one word about what the pakistani army has done in fostering extremism and its policies of mass murder, and you talk about denial.

are you still in denial after the events in pakistan yesterday? or were they hindus too? what about the 20 odd muslims killed? are you going to blame that on your evil neighbours as well?

I fully expect you to deny the above investigative report as well just like you deny the indian and international govt reports on the killings. So be it. But do look into that mirror sometimes. Will do you a world of good.

you would be right in expecting me to deny that the sun is square in shape and that the earth is not the center of the universe as well, in other words, i deal with facts, not your hyperbole.

i think the indian response here should be ample evidence as to what other indians also think of your two bit propoganda and “investigative reports”.

my mirror is doing very well, i look in it everyday as i live in and enjoy my life in india.

i certainly dont need an expat pakistani muslim, who cant think of anything beyond his religion to tell me what i should be looking in, thanks very much!

folks like you will never look in any mirror, as long as it serves your agenda, which is “islam= good” and “rest = bad”.

not that you give anything for indian muslims either. they are just a convenient disposable tool for you to use for the purposes of debate.

typical.

oh btw,

the BJP just won the elections for Himachal Pradesh by a thumping majority. the opposite party , the Congress congratulated the BJP and the same party reciprocated.

thats how things are done, in a civilized manner.

i’d rather elect “fanatical killers” such as the congress and bjp anyday who follow such “fanatical methods” than follow civilized pakistani methods of discourse as we have seen the past day which involve assassinating leaders with some 20 odd folks bumped off.

you are welcome to your methods of settling scores.

please dont export them.