Nick_76Thanks TP Huang
That matches what I was told by a person “in the know” as it were
For avoidin a flame war from the sensitive types, I wont post it on the thread
You can PM me if interested
Nick_76As i had stated earlier, the planes and the sats suppliment each other with overlapping capability. Cost, weather, flexibility, availability and deployment time determines which method is used for which purpose. Use of an ELINT aircraft in a particular situation doesnt mean the sats cant do the job. Same holds true for imaging sats.
This simply does not make sense. You are seeking some justification for stating initially that sats are de facto used to catalogue fighter radar performance and they could do everything etc etc, but perhaps in this case they werent…c’mon.
The simple fact is that you are mixing up many different types of signals, their transmission methods and the tools that are required to intercept and catalogue them. SATs by their very nature are very payload dependent- they are not all rounders, they have limited use in specific capabilities. Its no heresy to acknowledge this.
Put it this way, if the US really wants to find out the radar frequencies, it can. Flying around with radars turned off isnt going to achieve much and i doubt the IAF does that.
Now you are being specious and argueing just for the sake of argueing, with no clear logic. Given the same line of thought the US shouldnt have any ELINT ac at all, after all if it really wants to find out anything, it can. The IAF will definitely be well served by displaying the capabilities of its units only when it is sure that it is not being snooped upon. Otherwise, its units are flying with radars on in India- and that too for brief portions of the intercept geometry, as any sound tactical doctrine would envisage. The US and Indias regional rivals have nothing that can penetrate deep into its airspace, stay around for days on end and soak up all these signals to make sense of what is what, and which is which. Which is why when the IAF goes abroad, its the best chance to pick up knowledge of the IAFs equipment. Otherwise, the other option is to physically infiltrate/spy upon India and Russia to get the equipment details which is not an easy task either.
Nick_76I admit it’s kinda vague in this sense, but does not prove your point either that US depends on the “good will” of it’s enemies to relay their sensitive data with pronounced footprint for USA to pick up and be content :p
The US like all countries, uses different tools for different jobs. If it wants to monitor naval movements with high power search radars and radio relays linked upto SATs, if it wants to monitor cell phone communications over a large geographic area with the advantage of having fixed location emitters and relays- then it will use sats.
If it wants to track mobile, relatively low power signals that get attenuated, then it will seek to position mobile ELINT seekers in LOS or near LOS to pick up either main lobe or sidelobe contact.
And if the enemy is well aware of what the US is capable of, and takes precautions, that is that. They cant see what is not revealed. They can put up all the sats they want, but if the enemy moves to fibre optic lines, then nothing but physical taps will do.
Ok sorry i am dumb. BUt how does a missile “beams back” information to “get” telemetry data. If you are beaming back to the ground station what does it “get”. :p
Sigh. The Telemetry data is beamed back by the missile. Thats how you “get” telemetry data. You combine this with information from your sensors tracking the missile and get an accurate estimation of whats going on.
Nick, most of these Sats are 100-250 kms above in very low orbit. Atleast thats what i have read so far. You are more than welcome to verify.
Still doesnt change the fact that the coverage has to be a) WW for that LEO to count for the range above (and it isnt- hence the actual ranges) and b) The aperture needs to be sensitive enough to pick up a completely weak signal yet discard junk, a contradiction in terms and C) to be able to identify and home in on a signal which has not even been sorted or classified yet.
Nick_76The Sats have been able to intercept microwave communications since the 70.
Yeah, so? Microwave communications come in many kinds as I have repeatedly pointed out.
Note that even the directional beams will have side lobes and then there is the main lobe which will provide a longer and wider cone, the greater the range it operates at. And with the BARS radar ranges over 300km search range, the radar signal will spread around even if u try and eliminate the side lobes.
For crying out loud, the Bars power is not infinite- its not going to be picked up by a sat thousands of km away in orbit. That energy is going to go out in the main beam, with a fraction in the sidelobes, its not heading upwards! The rest is going to be attenuated and mixed with all the other junk flying around!
You need to read up on EW methods and techniques – dedicated ELINT missions with hours of mission planning are flown for every attempt to sniff frequencies of mobile targets with limited power o/ps.
The radio sniffing capabilities we know of are the declassified capabilities from early 70.
Radios! And of the 70s!
You realise A) and B) How much A) have moved on?
Now, 35 years on, the birds are able to see and hear a lot more. Betting against their capability is likely to lead to the same shock that the soviets got in 77.
Pure generics, it really doesnt count for much.
The reality is that before every conflict, the US spends millions of $s flying detailed ELINT Missions to catalogue airborne sources, and is reliant upon them for its Electronic ORBAT, not sats in the sky.
They serve their own purpose against targets best suited for them.
Nick_76Nick,
My first post mentions “airborne emmiters” in relation with White cloud and FERRET sats , not sure how you missed that.
Airborne emitters. Of what kind?!! There are emitters and then there are emitters- an airborne relay and comms station is not the same as a fighter.
So telemetry data goes from terrestrial relay to a missile? Did i get that right?
I, in my very inexperienced mind always thought it would be the data relay from missile to the ground station :p
:rolleyes:
Can you read?
which is the aim of a terrestrial relay or beaming back information throughout flight like a missile does to get telemetry data.
The second part speaks of a missile relay not the first. A proper ICBM will be beaming info throughtout its trajectory, including where it slips past the atmosphere, and provides crystal clear data vis a vis atmospheric attenuation to any unit located in the same band.
Anyways i have to admit i am not expert in this matter.However, do you really doubt that after 3-4 generations of ELINT Sats US is still not capable of sniffing airborne emmiters(which would certainly not be the case if they picked up telemetry data being relayed from missiles, IMHO)?
Technology is not EASY as Hollywood portrays it to be! Every system has limitations and so do ELINT sats. They can receive vast amounts of info, most of which is invariably garbage, the real gold comes when you know what you are looking for and receive it in the fidelity you require. That is not going to happen for a sat located thousands of kms away unable to focus its aperture to beam in on a beam that is not even directed towards it.
Nick_76More on intercepting automobile radios:
Based on intercepts of telemetry signals from Soviet missiles, CIA specialists followed the development and testing in the USSR of new missile types and provided the US leadership with reliable information for conducting discussions on the limitation of strategic nuclear forces. For example, as a result of decrypting intercepted telemetry signals from the SS-20 missile, American specialists established that it was being tested with 900 kg of ballast and that its actual capabilities were greater than those demonstrated during testing. The first hint of the development of the heavy Soviet ICBM which came to be called the SS- 19 was obtained by the Americans as the result of intercepting and decrypting a radio conversation between members of the Politburo and missile designers which was being conducted over a automobile radiotelephones. In 1973-1974 SIGINT satellites also revealed tests of the Soviet SA-5 antiaircraft missile against ballistic missile warheads at the Sary Shagan test range.
Oh for crying out lawd, all this stuff about auto radios and walkie talkies and now telemetry- you guys understand the difference, right? No you dont, so it appears.
A walkie talkie/ automobile radios- ALL depend upon transmission towers- they rely on the base station which purposefully does all it can to have as wide a footprint as possible. The base station transfers it feeds to relays via sat. uplink. It gets its feeds via sat downlink as well. Its easy for a sat to pick up signals bounced around like this compared to fighter radars or pencil beams from airborne emitters which are directed far away from any receiving aperture. Add atmospheric attenuation, and varying power levels, interference from similar systems and the result is garbage.
The Indian MKIs or for that matter any other fighter are not beaming hundreds of kilowatts towards space like ground based tracking radars, or even broadcasting with as wide a footprint as possible- which is the aim of a terrestrial relay or beaming back information throughout flight like a missile does to get telemetry data. They create highly focused beams in specific modes at specific points of time. Its as important to realise the mode a radar is working in while determining its frequency changes and key parameters.
That is exactly why the US relies on a fleet of ELINT birds to sniff emissions. These need to be positioned exactly where necessary, and mission planning is often done days in advance, to make sure that they have a workable chance of picking up signals. Every signal needs to be colocated with an identified parameter- a “target” which makes the data collected worthwhile. Otherwise it is so much garbage.
And even THEY are not good enough to pick up highly directional point to point microwave terrestrial comms which remain extremely hard to detect and intercept, which is why they are still the mode of choice for many terrestrial defence systems AND airborne datalink systems.
Big brother is NOT able to sniff everything from space chaps, not yet anyways. There is a wide need for multiple tools to get the job done, not just one super duper eye in space.
Nick_76You are dead wrong, and thats all I can say. In fact, it takes a dedicated ELINT aircraft quite some time, within a certain radius of action to determine the key parameters. This is from the horses mouth. And this, for the US, the most advanced nation as far as ELINT is concerned.
All this talk of “they can detect radar frequencies from a gazillion miles away” or whatever is pure hogwash. The US were smart enough to try and detect what the Bars worked on, the Indians found out and didnt play ball. Each of those Bars frequencies is worth its weight in gold for the IAF at present. Five years down the line, perhaps not.
Nick_76The 1 vs 1’s were guns only close combat
The BVR battle took place in flights of multiple aircraft
Nick_76Ahmadinejad is an Islamic fundamentalist, a holocaust denier and a jew baiter. Indias awesome political parties can live with the first (in fact they’ll garland him for that being the pathetic dhimmis that they are), but they really cant take his open holocaust denial etc and support it. The Israelis and the US will (justifiably) excoriate the idiots who invite him to India.
So no- no.
Nick_76Whether India should buy anything from US or not will be decided over coming days/months. Unfortunately for indian armed forces, a lot of this has absolutely nothing to do with their requirement and all to do with the current geopolitical situation around the globe.
In very simple words, US (due to its overstretched military power and all sort of issues in WAT besides other factors) desperately needs a good friend & ally in this part of Asia now to safeguard US interest including acting as a ‘balancer’ aganist an increasingly rising Chinese power. OTOH, India also needs full US support and goodwill to become and be recognised as a true world power. I have absolutely no doubt anymore that under current circumstances a lot of politicians in US would be more than willing to do anything to accomodate Indian requirements. To achieve this sort of formiddable US support, however, India would undoubteldy need to adjust certain aspects of its foreign policy, and ‘in reality’ will have to give up on its non-aligned status. I mean i can hardly imagine president Ahmedinejad coming to special Indian ocassions as chief guest unlike some previous iranian/other counterparts.
Anyway, those who are interested might find the following a little informative, though they have nothing to with Gorshkov.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IH22Df02.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IH23Df04.html
India will never invite Ahmedinejad- not after his “I wanna wipe Israel off the map” commentary.
Israel is a valued partner of India as far as technology and military cooperation goes, it wont alienate it.
And Bhadrakumar was if i recall, the Indian ambassador to Iran.
I have no issues with India forging good relations with the US.
But the USs demarches to India when it comes to Pakistan are unacceptable.
Nick_76Its really funny about the bias against the United States selling arms to India. As if this issue is only onesided. Its interesting to note that many free democratic countries have invested heavily in US Arms for decades with no ill effects. As for sanction should we go over the list and why they are on the list? That said, personally I think the US regrets the sanctions and many of the issues between the two countries and I think India does also. Really different times. Of course from the US point of view India’s relations with the former USSR has to be taken seriously. Its interesting how few consider the US Policy as a factor during the Cold War.
More than likely because many here were to young to remember…………:rolleyes:
You know what? Stop donating F-16s, JSOWs, GBU-12s, JADMs, TOW-2As, AN/TPS-77s, P-3s, Harris Radios etc etc – to Pakistan, and then India might take you seriously.
So billions in military aid to Pakistan- and arms sales to India, with a gracious mark up.
Can anyone spell c-o-n-f-l-i-c-t economy?
You have to be kidding if you think the US deserves weapon sales when its State Dept misses no chance to tell India to back off when it comes to Pak!
Do you have any guarantee whatsoever that if India declares war on Pak, the US will not use those F/A-18 E/Fs or whatever to put pressure on India to cease and desist?
Nick_76Ah, so you don’t have a frakking clue, you are making a blanket statement without a single shred of available evidence, based solely on your personal political prejudices.
No, you silly man (since you obviously cant read worth a damn and your reading comprehension sucks beyond reason), I made a basic point, that despite whatever brochure claims anyone believes in, what matters is operational capability. Operational capability as in the ability to take independent decisions as to be able to wage war without the logistics cut off.
Available evidence, he says! Prior sanctions on India, the crippling of the seaking fleet, the grounding of the SHars, the delays in the ALH & LCA- gee, which planet do you live on exactly, Unicorn?
So who doesnt have a clue, eh?
Please preface such comments with the statement ‘Political bullsh#t baggage attached’ please, it would make it much easier to find the few reliable facts in your future posts.
Now, now, what got you so red faced and spraying spittle all around? The fact that your dinky little toys are abso-bloody-lutely useless without spares and weaponry? Gee, I think that counts for a lot, but what do I know. :rolleyes:
Dont be so damn naive- that “political bullsh#t” is what decides the entire issue, not whether your Hornet has a big wee-wee as compared to the bad bad EF.
If you cant stand to read posts that run contrary to your blinkered POV, buzz off and ignore them. Nobodys forcing you to read them or reply to them either.
This is a forum for naval aviation and associated military equipment and activities.
Good- so understand that and look at the entire picture, not just yack about whose planes afterburner is the longest or whatever.
If you only post to bash the US and other western countries rather than contribute meaningfully to the content, I am sure you can find forums far more amenable to your worldview elsewhere.
Unicorn
Nobody bashed the US, you pompous “fly off the handle and rant for the heck of it” wallflower! I just pointed out the simple fact that purchases from the US come with political baggage attached, which a nation like India cannot afford, given that its foreign policy interests are not always aligned with those of the US.
If something so basic is beyond your understanding its best you dont post on any forum at all but let others talk about the reality of life- which is that the US uses weapons sales to influence politics, as do most nations- and that unlike Russia or France, the US’s foreign policy decisions run counter to Indias on occasion. The US is currently supporting Pakistan to the bloody hilt on account of its requirements. India and Pakistan are arch-rivals.
And supporting the purchase of the EF and Rafale is apparently bashing western countries according to this chap!
:rolleyes:
Nick_76Excellent post. You should actually write articles on Oz,mate.
What do you make of Kopp painting the F-22 as necessary to keep up with the evolved Flanker threat?
Nick_76The cost of 126 aircraft had been estimated at $10 billion, making it India’s biggest ever defence deal. The additional aircraft would cost $6 billion
If these figs are correct, 60-80 at 6 Billion, thats $75 -79 M / aircraft
Nick_76There is no surety that H Bhabha was assassinated- but who knows. anyways lets not go overboard.
But rest is correct. As that twit Musharraf would say: 400%
Canadas Avro Arrow, or Japans F-2 show what happens when the combination of the US MIC and local political incompetence runs amuck.
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