I feel that before jumping to any conclusions on the Mirage-2k upgrade, we probably should wait for a more detailed report from someone else too..there is too much to be read between the lines of Vivek Raghuvanshi’s article.

Correct!!

Highly misleading if you think IAF has only PAF centric mandate, highly misleading.
PS : Things are going off topic…

Raksha Mantri = Defence Minister

While delivering the Air Chief Marshal P.C.
Lal memorial lecture in March 2006, the
Honourable Raksha Mantri of India, Shri
Pranab Mukherjee acknowledged the
primacy of air power in future conflicts and
linked the reorientation of the IAF to India’s
rapid economic growth and the need to
protect our security interests extending from the Persian Gulf to the Malacca
Straits.

Source: STRATEGIC ROLE OF AIR POWER:
HOW WE NEED TO THINK, TRAIN
AND FIGHT IN THE COMING YEARS
ARJUN SUBRAMANIAM

Group Captain Arjun Subramaniam is on the Directing Staff of the Defence Services Staff College, Wellington.

India does’nt need to have dense fighter populations in the Southern half- the region near Pakistan airspace is the one where most aircraft are based anyway, and that is’nt going to change soon. Its the Eastern theater that needs more cover- its that region that the IAF talks of when it asks for more fighters, to be able to defend both theaters adequately.

whereas the PAF has always been IAF centric and for that its numbers are adequate, the IAF has a much larger mandate.

With 230 MKIs, the JF-17s and J-10s seem somewhat immaterial. The Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 will be upgraded as well. Secondly, as the JF-17s come in, the Mirage III/Vs in PAF service will be retired, dont think that more than a 2-3 squadrons worth were upgraded anyways..OTOH, the IAF is upgrading 40 Jags + 37 new build to same standards, and upgrading 70 MiG-27s. Then there are the Bison, MRCA (when it comes), LCA etc. So the JF-17 will be dual tasked for strike as well as Point Defence.

If I were in charge of PAF procurement, I’d cancel the JF-17, push for the J-10 and actually, the J-11. Thats the only plane with the potential to give the PAF some breathing space. Otherwise the MKI is simply too “heavy” in terms of sensor reach, payload and range for the PAF to effectively counter it. The situation will become far worse for the PAF if the IAF operationalizes the K-172 and a sensor package (upgraded Bars/ Irbis) to use it effectively.

Actually, Derby has a range > 60 km, and it does have a datalink.

Copied from BR @ JCage:

For greater accuracy over extended ranges, the Derby has a datalink update capability – referred to as the ‘Derby uplink’ – that allows targeting data to be transmitted from the launch aircraft to provide more accurate mid-course guidance. This is particularly important against fast-moving or manoeuvring targets. The missile also has the ability to receive datalink updates from other platforms besides the launch aircraft. This would permit a ‘stealthy’ missile shot whereby the launch aircraft does not need to activate its own radar to locate a target – thereby reducing the risk of its own detection.

‘

Range: over 35 nm (63 km)

DefenseNews

05/28/07

India Finalizes Mirage Upgrade Deal
Dassault, HAL To Overhaul Aircraft’s Avionics, EW, Displays

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI

India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and France’s Dassault Aviation will work together to upgrade 52 Indian Air Force Mirage 2000-H aircraft. The $800 million deal has been finalized and the contract will be signed in 2007, a Defence Ministry official here said.

Dassault will upgrade the first two Mirages in France, where HAL engineers will participate in the work. The new avionics, to be bought from Israel, will be installed on the Mirages at HAL facilities in India.

The remaining 50 Mirages will be upgraded in India with technical help from Dassault, the Defence Ministry official said.

A HAL executive said Dassault’s agreement to train HAL engineers in France is the first of its kind for India.

HAL, India’s sole aircraft manufacturer, will remain the prime contractor for the contract and will be responsible for the overall combat-worthiness of India’s Mirage fleet, the Defence Ministry official said.

Dassault will receive 60 percent of the cost of all the Mirage hardware.
The Indian Air Force will also be involved in the upgrade, the Defence Ministry official said, but not with the purchase of the upgrade hardware, a condition the Air Force had earlier insisted upon.

The upgrades include:
• New avionics, including an advanced navigation system, mission computers, Mil 1553 B data with Digibus, a pulse doppler radar that can find objects out to 70 nautical miles.
• Two displays and an advanced head-down display in a glass cockpit.
• Electronic warfare systems, including new radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, an integrated missile warning receiver with continuous time-to-impact information, and new jammers and countermeasure systems.
• Increased fuel capacity.The improved Mirages will carry up to four Derby beyond-visual-range missiles, at least two short-to-medium-range Python V missiles and long-range smart munitions.
The deal with Dassault also includes full mission simulators.
The upgraded aircraft will have a warranty of 24 months or 360 operational hours. (The IAFs 180 hrs/yr figure for the Mirage 2000’s)

Along with the Russian Su-30 MKI, the Mirage is the Air Force’s main combat aircraft, a service official said. The Air Force’s fleet strength has been sliding due to retirement of several of its MiG aircraft. India acquired its first Mirage 2000H/TH fighters in the mid-1980s to equip two air defense squadrons, and has lost at least seven through accidents. •

Wideband receivers, not wide bank..

Usual Indian mix and match, LOL :rolleyes: 😀

On a related note- new avionics from Israel…logistics commonality?

French MFDs, Head down display
Su967 HUD from Elbit
RLG INS from SAGEM

70nm for a fighter sized target = RDY Mk2

Mission computers- Indian I guess
Weaponry- Israeli- Derby, Python V and Popeye (I bet!!)

4 Derbys + 2 Python + Bombs/missiles = Mirage 2000 V style 9 pylons.

EW fit– grey area– Israeli or French?

What is the latest French fit on the Mirage 2000 and how good is it?

As I had said to Jonesy pulling up the PN Khalid program as an example…the difference is that India insists on far more TOT and local industrial participation, either via own developed items or via JV’s.

Link

Scorpene construction work begins in Mumbai

Arunkumar Bhatt

India has a $ 3.5-billion deal with the French for six submarines

First Scorpene will be delivered to Navy in 2012
Components for first two Scorpenes will come from France

MUMBAI: The construction of highly advanced Scorpene began at Mazgon Dock here on Wednesday under a $ 3.5 billion deal for six such submarines with the French.

“Today we are at the starting point, the construction of the first section of the hull has begun,” said Jean-Marie Poimboeuf, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of DCN, the French shipbuilders supplying technology, design, consultancy and components to Mazgon Dock.

Mr. Poimboeuf said the first Scorpene would be delivered to the Indian Navy in 2012 and then one every year. Thus, five submarines would be built almost together. The components for the first two Scorpenes would come from France. But most of the equipment needed for the other four submarines would be made in India by various Indo-French collaborations or joint ventures.

Mr. Poimboeuf, who is also the chairman of GICAN, the French naval armament industry group, and other French executives are here to hold a meeting between the French and Indian industries.

The GICAN and the Confederation of Indian Industry on Wednesday began a two-day meeting. Mr. Poimboeuf said nearly 20 French companies were being represented in the Mumbai conference.

Coastal defence

Designed for coastal defence against underwater threats, the 1,750-tonne Scorpene is 67 meters long and could dive to the depth of 300 meters. It can stay at sea for 45 days with a crew of 31. The standard version has six torpedo tubes and (anti-shipping) missile launchers.

Mr. Poimboeuf said the DCN had already supplied two Scorpenes to the Chilean navy and was constructing two more in France for the Malaysians. But in case of India, all the six were being built in Mumbai. While general architecture, propulsion system and torpedo tubes were common to all the three navies, the Scorpenes for India would be somewhat different in combat systems and living accommodation.

“The Indian Navy has got the changes made to suit its requirements,” he said.

The Navy wanted incorporation of some systems which were used in other Indian ships on the Scorpenes. Besides, it wanted the tubes capable of launching two different kinds of torpedoes. Mr. Poimboeuf refused to identify the origins of these torpedoes.

The supply of sea-skimming SM 39 Exocet anti-shipping missiles was a part of the deal.

Technology transfer

While the technology transfer covered the entire submarine, the French would not transfer the technology for torpedo tubes.

But Mr. Poimboeuf told The Hindu that the supply of this particular know-how could be considered.
The construction would reach that stage in 2009.

If one assumes the $500M number to be correct, then the 10% number seems more or less accurate.

My concern however is that 10% is the lower limit of russian kit. And depending upon when the 10% is achieved, the $610M additional cost has the potential to rise a lot more.

The point is that project cost is going to be a variable figure..for eg, if tomorrow, the IAF finalizes the MLU and says that all fighters after 2012 will be built to this new standard with new radars and improvements..the cost will rise!

But the % of indigenization will lower the cost, while the imported components will edge upwards with 5% a year…so the point is that my calculations cant take that into account. See, for instance, x components cost y$$ in russia, but lower indian labour costs have them reduce to y/2…stuff like that.

Either ways, what you are seeing is that a $ 500 Million increase is anticipated. If we treat the indigenization issue separately, the point is that it will also occur given the track record so far.

Do you guys think this will result in additional funding being directed to LCA to avoid similar scenarios in the future? Or does LCA have all the funding required and the issues are non-funding related?

The way Indian defence R&D works is…compartmentalization. So, all these projects come under different funding heads and its accounted for. This basically because the economy allows for different programs to be funded without robbing Peter to pay Paul.

The LCA and its prime system, the Kaveri, are already funded for, in terms of GOI commitment, paperwork etc

The LCA’s FSED-I ended in 2005, within cost (2 TDs, 2PVs, + 1 static test specimen), and in 1999, FSED-2 was launched in parallel- it has some 3PVs, 8 LSPs plus the 20 a/c order from the IAF..
So the LCA has its own funds allocated.

Frankly, while the MKI cost juggling is a pinch for the pocket, its not really unusual, and the A/C is still the most value for money in its class.
Whats most interesting is the growth potential- the airframe was designed to lug around a lot of gear, and as the trend towards miniaturization of subsystems and AESA etc continues, the MKI is well placed to take advantage of it.