What were the figures stated again….an extra 1700kms of new cabling required…all for ‘new sensors’ you say Nick!. that is one of the finest attempts at spin I’ve ever seen Nick. You are to be commended for possessing the sheer affrontery to try it!.

The facts are straight forward. 2010 and $113 mill over budget so far. Whats the price for this adhoc lashup now Nick?. $800-850 mill without the fighters?. Crying out loud they saw you lot coming!

I should have known! :rolleyes:

But never mind..lets get to the point/s.

Jonesy, one report and off you are holding it to be cent per cent true. But lets not mind that shall we- you know more than Sevmash or the IN. You have quite clearly indicated that several times previously.

Never mind that it could be merely one more of the usual “he said, she said” reports which are released by either side as a means of public pressure to force the other to grant concessions either. Frankly, not only are you displaying an appalling lack of maturity in the matter- which is quite surprising coming from you, but nor are you waiting to see if the report is even corroborated by others. Having dealt with the Indian AND Russian press, I wouldnt take any report from either, whether positive or negative as confirmed, unless there were others to back it up.

But lets assume that the report is true and go from there.

Be as it may, your increasingly condescending tone of voice merits a response- since I really dont have the patience to put up with your airs.

Talking of affrontery, I am yet to see the kind of bovine faecal matter that you passed off- “Aha, this ties in with what I have said”- being mentioned anywhere in the report. Lets get this straight- is the cabling an indication of the ships hull or structure NOT being what it was? No- not even you can pull that off. Wait- is this cabling because of the “dilapidated boilers”? Errmm No- you couldnt pull that one off either.

Ergo, the cabling is required for control systems and sensors. Plain common sense, and none of the silly motives of “Spin” either which you chose to imply. If you have some other miraculous reasons as to why extra cabling would be required in significant amount, you are free to inform us. OTOH, I am also aware that the IN has signed several new agreements for brand new sensors, and C3I AFTER the Gorshkov was signed- I find it logical that the IN may choose to revise portions of the sensor fit if they provide a significant advantage over what was agreed upon earlier.

So when & where has this report mentioned ANYTHING about the state of the ship itself- which was the basic contention made by you , et al originally? This was the stuff you kept harping on.

You are better off talking of the cost escalation and the lack of a proper AEW capability- now those are serious matters, even though Indian Navy would rather pay a few hundred Million than be without a carrier. Those were the last points you made in LATER discussions and they are far more rational than the claim of “Och man, the wee carrier is gonna break apart and the Indians donna know aboot it” or whatever.

You really dont need to bring in self congratulatory hyperbole or give yourself a big pat on the back for indulging in it either.

It may surprise you but I am quite sure, that before the deal is through, there will be more cost escalations and rework- perhaps that may put a smile on your face, before we examine the RN’s sterling record in such impeccable matters. Lets get to it in due time…but that would merely reinforce the point that even the most senior and professional of services change their mind or have cost escalations in their projects hmm?

Look at the other thread for a reply.

Nick/Matt/Ankush cut it guys!
You guys are getting on a fight over nothing, Matt Nick has logic and reasoning but he might have been a bit harsh on his way of approach, so none does the justice, so just drop it.

Joey, you are a newcomer and hence unaware- this is not the first time, and I can well predict it wont be the last they way Matt acts from time to time with his snooty behaviour over “patriotism”, “nationalism” or whatever. If someone volunteers information, the least one can do is thank them. Not act smarmy and then questions their patriotism or implies they are “patriots” (insert sarcasm) and that they are handing out classified information just because that information contradicts their claims… should we let this juvenile and silly behaviour pass? 21Ankush made the effort to obtain an update- nothing classified- and informs folks in a fair manner, and then gets attacked for it! How long do you think he’ll keep it up with Matt/s doing their usual, hmm? Its bad for all those interested in the LCA or whatever program.

Hyper

Interesting – you seem to lay the blame for the renewed war partly on the Sinhala groups as well..could you elaborate more on that? Generally, since the LTTE is a non state actor, its held responsible for most of the warfare.
Would be interesting to hear your take as a Sri Lankan.

PDF is a big joke..if you take a look at the level of discussions going on over there, its like a big collection of kindergarteners living out their fantasy of martial supremacy..:D they have a whole different parrallel universe into which they are all immersed.;)

Talking about sore losers, check out Matts new signature…now hes attempting to claim that the bit about load tests was a secret but doesnt have the gonads to debate it in the open….sheesh, how does one deal with such petulant immaturity? 🙁

Keep your updates coming, they are appreciated.

Actually the above article is from PDF (Pakistani- DF). Missile has been riduculed by many people over there. And many disgusting things are going on over there.
I think Mr. Arshad must have seen the thread and thought lets post in other forums maybe there are some more intelligent opinions (like in PDF:D :rolleyes: ) can be discussed over here.
This post is just a joke by him.

cheers

Thanks for the info!!

That report refers to trials from several years back…this was the reply in a discussion elsewhere:

>>chunks falling off

though admittedly it happened, the problem was solved longtime ago — atleast 8-9years ago.. bcoz that was the time when the problem and troubleshooting that happened were explained to us BTech students by Dr.PS who came to deliver a technical lecture..

Apparently one of the problems was the vibration caused due to axial compression of air during the solid-rocket propelled boost phase in the 4 Ram ducts.. one of the freq of such vibration tended to coincide with one of the modes of structural vibration close to resonance.. it was overcome by putting plugs in the ducts at jet intake and intake to combustor which get ingested when sufficient ram pressure is reached..

most of the failures mentioned in the articles did happen (though portrayed in excessive Hyeprbole) — Akash team did honestly admit to that during AI07.. but all these happened in the “early” developmental stages..

And more,

A presentation, based on the report of an IAF expert who had witnessed the trials, contained several startling revelations. “The IAF expert witnessed repeated cases of missile parts falling off during many trials. He recommended that the Akash missile system was not fit to be deployed,” a senior officer, who attended the presentation, told HT.

This was a problem with excessive vibration and lack of structural strength in the Ramjet system, which was resolved.

Pointing out major flaws in this missile system, developed as a part of the country’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme, the report presented to the IAF officers says, “The expert noticed it took 25 minutes to load a single missile on the launcher, which rendered this missile system unfit for use in war-like situations. The night loading time would therefore automatically be twice more than daytime.”

And how many minutes does it take on the Pechora? If the IAF is so worried, they can adopt stationary posts in the meanwhile, like the Pechora, along with mobile launchers, while R&D works on reducing the time.

“It was not capable of picking up low-level targets over any sea, due to multi-path reflection. The missile warhead was also not capable of engaging present-generation targets, due to repeated failures,” the report says.

The Akash was never meant for a Naval use. The only time this came up was when the Navy thought of it, and instead decided to go for AESA.
This is again a case of unobtainium at the last moment.
The Akash was meant to defend IAF bases in the hinterland, and finally- protect moving Army strike corps. Are there many seas near the LOC?
The warhead problem was also resolved with ECIL.

Quote:
However, the DRDO has strongly defended the missile system. In a written response to queries by HT, the DRDO said it was “fully satisfied with the current status of trials of Akash. Currently all doubts have been cleared and resolved”.

Today.

Quote:
“The missile system is now complete after successful trials and the organisation is confident about its success,” the DRDO added.

Quote:
The report indicates that desperate moves were made during the trials to prove that the system was a success. “A radar was placed on a 13-metre-high platform for all trials, to increase the efficiency of the missile system artificially, which would not be the case in hostile conditions of war,” it says.

Absolute BS. The IAF itself employs multiple radar systems with extremely high masts. This includes their stand alone radars, in the BADZ. If the Akash is deployed with the IAF, and which will invariably be a prepositioned deployment, its radar can be elevated and placed. The current range of high power L/S band radars the IAF is purchasing also belong to the same category! The manufacturer in fact specifies that masts are preferable and offers them with the system.

Quote:
Cautioning the IAF on the limitations of the Akash missile system, the report says, “In its present status, Project Akash cannot meet the operational requirements of the IAF, due to major design flaws, and if the IAF wanted to use this particular missile system, then it would have to lower its acceptability standards.”

Which is why it went for rework till 2007..

Quote:

The DRDO, however, said the Akash missile system had an edge over other systems due to its multi-target handling capacity, being a fully automatic system. It said since the system was completely indigenous, it could be quickly upgraded within the country.

Correct, case in point see the Pechora upgrade…nobody willing to touch it with a pair of tongs for fear of the “IAFs acceptably high standards”…

This is a dated report from the early Akash trials, which the journalists got their hands on…

There were many other design changes..

The BMP based Rajendra radar is now on a T-72
The Rajendra radar can now swivel 360 degrees

There are thoughts towards putting an active seeker in the Akash now..

Etc etc