Nick

So, to summarise, you are not impressed with me for bringing this up again then?.

Should I be impressed, or rather apalled at how badly your shoulder is getting worne out by a chip which you appear to have borne for some time?

You dont like the Gorshkov deal any more than I do, by your own admission “you wont find anyone here who is tickled pink about the Gorshkov” which, incidentally, shifts the goalposts immensely as, if you look back, Gorshkov was going to be the uber-figurehead of the whole IN and the Russians were terribly nice chaps for agreeing to sell it – according to those posting at the time!.

Sorry- try that on someone else, old bean, I remember the discussion as having been far more nuanced, rather than your somewhat amusing description. The simple fact, then as now, as portrayed by most of the pro-Gorshkov crowd was that it was a good thing to have, given what else was available. And that it would enter service and provide useful capability. Not that it was some uber carrier. Incidentally, that particular windmill seems to be your creation. While such pick and choose imagery may win semantic points in loose debate, it adds nothing to the reality.

You are still trying to peddle the ‘it was the only choice we had’ line despite the fact that this might have been the case in 1995….not 2004 when you eventually signed up for it!. Technically, it wasnt the case in 1995 either as several carrier designs were available back then and, if you had to have Russian kit they would have snapped your hands off at the arm if you’d wanted an in on the Yak-141 project back then. This letting you acquire a much simpler and cheaper vessel than Gorshkov to operate from.

My goodness- the amount of stuff you come up with is amazing- but you are least bothered about the realities. In your world perhaps decisions take place in a vacuum, funds are infinite, everyone the IN approaches jumps up and snaps a smart salute, strategic concerns of long term reliability are not an issue- only tech specs and brochure bashing matters and only the best system must do. Compromise is never a word that can and may occur! One can only wish!! Are you aware of how the IN procurement system was shortcircuited in the 90’s thanks to funds issues and how much work had ALREADY gone into deciding around the Gorshkov? I think not. The IN had decided on the Gorshkov before 1995, the haggling till 2004 took place primarily due to funding issues AND the issue of supporting assets, which became available in the form of the MiG-29K, revised. Given the amount of money and effort that has gone into the Gorshkov- the IN would have been stupid to walk away. They planned for the Gorshkov and waited and haggled till they got it on terms they could afford. In an ideal world they would have asked for the Kuznetsov or whatever, but I daresay the IN knew what their learning curve could handle, how the Russian shipyards would be pressed to put the Gorshkov back in service rather than build an all new design from scratch. They made their choice over a decade back, and worked at it, till they got it into service. And it will serve as a useful tool to familiarize Naval aviators with far more powerful platforms than the obsolete SHars.

By 2004 there is just no excuse for the unfathomable decision to go for Gorshkov. As I said go STOBAR fine….go MiG-29K fine….build something yourself to fly them off!. Nothings threatening your Harriers at present and nothing will for the next decade. You’ve had the time, still got the time and you’ve got access to all the knowledge you need to build the vessel that suits your requirements. Despite this you are still p1ssing about with antiques and smiling while you do it?!.:confused:

Which world are you in Jonesy? Some parallel dimension perhaps? Build your own he says- how easy!! This when the local shipyards were patently unable to handle the backlog of conventional fleet ships that had piled up as the MOD had slept on the files for a decade! This when a decade later, despite investment and reform, on the back of a booming economy, India is still looking abroad for ships because its local infrastructure is overloaded. And the IN- which pretty much lives with those shipyards day in and night out, and knows every pro and con, would promptly rely on them. Coming to antiques- is the present British carrier in IN service, any better? Over its service life, it has used up enough elbow joints and elbow grease to sink a smaller Navy. You seem to be utterly blase about the choices a Navy makes to ensure that its Naval arm remains in the show, and in fact transitions to something more capable. Wait for the MOD to clear an ADS, revised for MiG-29s- Ok. So whos going to bulk up the yard for the same? Its but in recent years that the ADS has picked up pace because funds are available. If your advise was followed, then India would be with one carrier alone, whilst the money was scrounged for the ADS, which would have come when it was alone, and used to bits. Now, the Gorshkov and ADS will complement each other, and the experience gained from both programs will be used for a third as and when the GOI can find the money for it. Guns vs butter, especially true for any developing country, and so it must be.

By 2004 this was still the case?. I thought most sanctions were lifted by 2001 and by 2004 even the nuclear sanctions were being lifted?. Besides the IN had considerable experience with steam cats and, presumably, wouldn’t be too incapable of keeping them operational. The US hardly see the technology as that critical as they have sold them to the French (a handy under-the-counter spares source if ever there was one) and are replacing the technology in the next decade anyway. In your circumstances you need better than SPY-1/AEGIS and you need to sort out your littoral ASW before trying to run SSN’s IMO!!!.

Jonesy, you have the best of intentions perhaps, and you seriously believe in what you write- but I can assure you that sanctions have been of late, lifted. Spares supplies resumed on a somewhat case by case basis, but the manner in which trust was killed- is a different issue. At the time, it became pro-forma for every deal to be scrutinized for each and every screw with the US flag on it. Secondly, you have to be ribbing us when you point out that the steam cat is not restricted technology. Perhaps the PRC can get away with it, from the French or whatever- this is India we are talking about. Currently in the dock in the US, for importing – or attempting to, obsolete i960 chips. Every indian program manager will tell you of the immense roadblocks deliberately placed in their way by the US, out of their sense of global cop who has to put the pesky nuke bomb weilding indians in their place. Secondly, again- you dont understand, funding is funding. If I have three line items cleared, then thats that- I dont need to go back and haggle with the MOD. The ATV was cleared and is managed by the Navy and run by the DAE and DRDO. Why mess with it? And do you think the IN will let the strategic forces cap remain with the IAF and IA alone? That itself will tie the IN out of a huge potential source of funds and service power. Same goes for other programs- the Navy has many programs, what get through the corridors of power are lucky, and treated as such. Not for them to sit and quibble over what goes first and how.

I am perfectly able to talk to people without talking down to them – all they have to do is talk sense. Everyone I have spoken to, who’s experience I know in the maritime arena, has said this one is unfathomable and thats from Americans, Europeans and Asians. The ONLY people who trumpet this decision are those who’re concerned more with national prestige than the operational capability of their Navy. Not one of those people have ever come up with a defence for the acquisition other than the petulant 9yr-old-esque ‘Well the IN knows what they are doing, you know!’ line. Those people I WILL talk down to!.

Sorry- but the reason why your lot dont understand is entirely because of that self belief that you know best for another Navy than it knows for itself. And then out comes the silly hackneyed burra sahib bilge of national prestige. I daresay you dont know a tenth of what I do about India’s procurement history and its compulsions and I know squat all compared to what gets negotiated daily. India does what it must, and it will continue to do so. Brahmos, oooh- national prestige! Su-30 MKI, what do they need that for then, national prestige…get over yourselves old chaps! Decisions made by other countries may baffle you- which is why the net exists- ASK!!

As for ‘not being able to take it’ you’ve just had a go at me for defending my position so vitriolically in the past and now you say I am being sensitive?. Besides I actually invited you to keep having a go if you so wished….you are trying to obfuscate the issue with bombast and hysteria and draw the topic away from the facts which are uncomfortable for you. Unfortunately its a very old, tired and hackneyed technique in debating terms and not one likely to work really!.

No, I am actually tired of listening to the same old, same old. Simply put, you have a rather egotistical streak which does not allow you to admit that the other person has a point and it subsumes yours, so you keep plugging away at it. Repitition may make for good press, but it doesnt win you the arguement. Talk about vitriol- you speak of bombast and hysteria, but take a look at several of your statements, they are virtually dripping in sanctimony and pronounce judgements on topics which sometimes you are quite out of touch. Its one thing to ask questions and invite answers. But if you make judgement calls and then decide to play judge and jury with those who dont share your POV, then be prepared to be judged as fairly as you judge others.

Realy there is no need for repetition, you have already proved that you cant take a joke.:D

Yes, indeed- lets joke about the Master race, “Lord”. Frankly- is there one group on this board who has not set you to rights for your rather execrable behaviour? :rolleyes:

Yawn, same old same old.:rolleyes:

What? No talk of the master race(tm)?

Dont be slipping up, old chap!!

Nick_76: I’ll respond in detail a little later.

Still waiting. 😉

Nick: I have no reason to doubt what you say and indeed the problems may have been fixed by now. However, the proof of any weapons effectiveness is when it is accepted by the customer. And clearly there is an issue with even domestic indian customers accepting many of the big ticket DRDO attempts at local production.

Can you point out which of the big ticket items is READY ie, has cleared user trials and is not being accepted by the customer? And which of those READY items has not been cleared for production?

Lets make it easier- big ticket projects as defined by the DRDO on account of complexity etc:

1.Ballistic Missiles? Agni, Prithvi- accepted and in production.

2.MLRS? Accepted and in production.

3.EW projects? AF and Navy in production; Armys in user trials with Block 1 and 2 in service and Block 3 in trials.

4.Fighter? LCA- In flight testing, developmental.

5.Tank? In production, with build quality trials for each production batch.

6.SAMs- Trishul cancelled, Akash yet to have user trials.

7.ATGM- Nag, Specs revised last year, with range requirement increased by 75%, ie it will be reengineered, has to go through all the trials etc.

So out of the 7 above, 3 categories are in service, one is still under development so is irrelevant. Those left are the Arjun, Akash & Trishul and Nag. The last is again out of the loop because the services revised their GSQRs and DRDO is not in the picture and has to act according to that.

So there is a record of the customer accepting DRDO big ticket items regularly. Out of seven categories and many times that number of projects, only two have seen issues over acceptance, one is the Trishul and the other the Arjun. The Trishul has been cancelled, but a follow on project launched with MBDA, and even the Arjun is in production to iron out production issues and build user confidence in local production.

So even by the “perception”- the facts speak to the contrary. The bulk of DRDO’s big ticket projects, by number alone, are either in service, or have been accepted.

I am not even counting the spinoffs!

So lets leave the issue of perception behind and get to the report. The facts are that the claims made by the report are untrue.

That the Akash is yet to be accepted is obvious- its very well possible that the latest series of trials could show that the IAF wants reload time reduced even further or that they want > 30 Km range or whatever.

But thats not the point- we are discussing what the report stated, and that is patently untrue. The developmental issues mentioned by the report occured years ago and were solved.

As for Akash, as long as IAF isnt satisfied with DRDO, it is difficult to believe all is fine on the farm even if we ignore the delays.

Whether the Akash is acceptable to the IAF will be known only AFTER the current user trials. But they havent occurred yet, have they!

Secondly, I wouldnt go so far as stating that the IAF is unhappy with the DRDO – there are projects which have been delayed, others which havent. As always, there are both sides of the coin.

Credit: JC & rakall, BRForum:

Wg Cdr J S Gavankar, Senior Software Engineer (Avionics), Indian Air Force

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/video_index.aspx?id=29

JS Gavankar: The problem is that a lot of goodwork gets done by Govt labs like DRDO but it doesnt get highlighted because we dont have a separate marketing division like the private sector..it is the responsibility of the media to highlight this..take the Sukhoi for instance, there are enough technologies developed by DRDO laboratories which are onboard…there is nothing that does not meet international standards, these have been exported as well..the thrust should go towards indigenizing the entire fleet , including the civilian airlines so ten fifteen years…

Or:

Interview: R P Ramalingam, distinguished scientist & director, DARE

– IAF is already using it.. it has trialled it against systems on existing a/c and it has outodne all the systems
– performed very well aganst US a/c at Kalaikunda

There is no doubt that there have been significant cost escalations, delays, even failure- Trishul for eg, but then thats the risk to be paid when one makes or attempts to make items inhouse. And especially when the attempt is made after a long hiatus.

I never saw anybody disputing that other navys have cost overruns, however this thread is about the Indian Navy. Diluting it by comparing the rather unique Gorshkov aquisition with other very different programmes gets knowbody anywhere.

My lawd, what spin!!

In fact, it makes utter sense, to keep in mind that project management is NEVER perfect and that even the most professional of services worldwide frequently fall prey to requirements creep and cost escalations.

Why do we need to look at the RN? I was under the impression that this thread was about the Indian Navy?:p

It indeed is. But what could put a cost escalation of (say) $ 113 Million in context by showing how the RN, USN, FN or whatever N have never had such issues to deal with? Makes perfect sense. In fact- I shall get to it forthwith.