IEEE journals publish papers that are considered to be an original contribution to the existing knowledge base. A very sophisticated weapon may not warrant a paper even in a mediocre publication, simply because it’s a culmination/integartion of existing knowledge base.

While there is definitely a correlation between a country’s industrial base and the number of technical publications that are coming out of that country, it may not be applicable in the case of a “specific high-priority” project.

You missed the point – as a long time reader of IEEE, I can assure you a paper need not be about a breakthrough contribution but can refer to another “way” of approaching a problem. A very sophisticated weapon by its very nature will require some unique country specific attributes in terms of navigation etc – and usually the scientists who work on such programs do publish a suitably guarded depiction of their work ..but whats surprising is that you can find almost every country with a reasonably developed industry there…well represented, from korea (south), australia, PRC, India, Japan, etc- never mind the biggies like the US & west…but with the notable exception of Pak. Now our Pak friends assure us that they are making all this themselves…so it goes to figure there should be some public source showing research in their country..but zip, nada, zilch.

So you are correct- While there is definitely a correlation between a country’s industrial base and the number of technical publications that are coming out of that country, it may not be applicable in the case of a “specific high-priority” project– the problem here is that there no other projects as well to determine their tech state by or even prove it…virtually nothing in RF, Optics, propulsion, material science…yet they come up with “wunderbar” weapons…

I’d go for KISS…and say license manufacture!!

Take a look at this picture of babur, without the booster it looks very much like the tomahawk, both the YJ-62 and Babur were taken in their boost stages, but while cruising the Babur does resemble the tomahawk.

You do realise that is an animated image, right? Look at the released pictures and my reply to Farooq!

Nick I have no idea what your talking about “score one up”??, im not playing a game here just debating about Pakistani input into the Babur. As I have said earlier NDC are the makers of the Babur and have likly worked in conjunction with NESCOM, DESTO, and foreign (chinese companies). The fact there is not much information in the public, or internet domain does not discount what NDC has done.

But you cant provide any details of NDCs manpower, its prior expertise or any products in similar vein or subsystems, but you want me to state that it is a NDC product! Is the Al Khalid a Norinco product or a DEPO one? Is the JF-17 a CATIC product or a Kamra one? See the parallels?

As its you whos making the aqusations why cant you back up your claims, the same way you cant, no one else bar NDC themselfs cant go into more detail on the ins and outs of Baburs development. Name calling is not my style, I have not resorted to any name calling so stop the lies. Your Kentron story was interesting but personal stories are madeup allot on forums.

My, my getting testy arent we! Any “tom, nick and ..” and similar statements- but if somebody points it out, outrage! I have backed up my assertions and I am asking you for evidence. You dont have any! I have also explained my reasons for skepticism- politely- but you have blind faith in the NDC! So please do display all the systems etc and I would believe you- otherwise, I would take the rational belief that PR apart, this is in all probability a PRC missile. Its a reasonable step to believe in.

Can you prove otherwise?, you have no evidence to back up NDC did not create the Babur. Even if NDC invited you to their labs and facilities and showed you the set up you wouldnt still believe it, you have allready forgone your own conclusion. I have discussed above what NDC does, how long they have been around and some other companies im not going to keep repeating myself just because you cant believe it.

Rhetoric! You have said “NDC does this”- but there is no evidence to back up what the NDC does! If being around is a criteria, I can show you many sales orgs that have been around for decades and claim to be developers- surely you agree that being around is not the sole criteria. Secondly, if NDC did invite me and I saw these facilities- I would credit them. It is your assumption that I have an axe to grind against them- I dont. I am calling it as I see it not implying that Pakistanis are “stupid” or somesuch thing.

Ok which systems and projects do these companies have to their names related with Cruise missile research and development, can you show me the subsystems pictures, performance- which products they went into as well, otherwise all the above like NDC must have a back garden setup like you and your mates can do.

Most definitely, go to Bharat-Rakshak, and check the Indian section under AeroIndia. You’ll see onboard guidance computers – multiple types, fire control systems, TELs, group command & control systems..

Ok,

DRDO is the lead designer and its partners are:

Group centers & C3I- , includes all the microwave comms, fancy displays-ECIL
TEL and hydraulics- Larsen & Toubro
Composite Tubes for Missiles- TATA
Naval launchers- Larsen & Toubro
Fire Control systems- Larsen & Toubro & Datapatterns
Missile INS- Hindustan Aeronautics & DRDO
Embedded software for the missile- various developers, including Satyam..
Godrej & Larsen & Toubro, missile production, including airframe and parts of propulsion

Seekers and other parts in Russia & integrated in India at the Brahmos missile complex.

Google around & you will get all the above data!! I have just got this from another forum where somebody posted it..thats how open the Indian side is with the info. Because they have it, and can show what they have.

Now can you tell me what NDC did for the Babur, bar generics?

The Babur is not for sale, they are unlikly to offer it to export customers, it would be breaking the MTCR, so its unlikly its systems would be shown to the public eye just yet. You have to also remember its a recent development in pakistan, whether repainted or not.

Surely you jest!! Would pak hesitate to even display Inertial nav systems, on board computers, materials technology??

“Dude” why dont you also take a look at the Babur and Tomahawk, they look quite similar too so now shall we say the americans gave Pakistan tech transfer for that as well. All cruise missiles look similar, have a look at the SS-N-26 YAKHONT and the Brahmos, they look similar too shall we say the latter is a repaint now as well?

In your effort to score one up, you scored a self goal! The Yakhont is the father of the Brahmos, but it languished till the Indian side ponied up the money to develop it into the Brahmos, but with their own INS, Firecontrol, C3I, TEL, control centers etc. The russians supplied the missile propulsion, airframe and seeker, and now India can manufacture the propulsion…you can even trace which company/lab is doing what…but can you state the same for the Babur? If so, please tell us!

Is this your reasoning to discredit pakistans own contribution to their cruise missile program, its quite laughable why dont you have a look up on NDC and you will see what I have stated above is what they do. They make aerospace subsystems, guidiance and other avionics ect. From now on lets descredit all websites that show any defence related info because as you say any tom nick and bob can put one up.

How am I discrediting it, by stating the obvious? You are unable to show me any subsystems but insist that because NDC says so it must be! Calling me names wont change the fact. If you say NDC made OBComputer DP-XX with 486 chipset, but now have a Strongarm processor based one, blah blah- show pictures, performance- which products it went into, its believable…otherwise!! Otherwise its like the Pak east west corp website- tell me, are the radios they advertise their own? Or are they south african?

Cruise missiles are not something out of the extra ordinary and nearly 10 years or more of research and development is no “faster than anyone else” either. Why dont you name the subsystems not made by pakistan because you throw out acusations but cant back them up only with personal speculation. Im not a worker at NDC i dont know how many windtunnels there are, or supercomputers they use but they have a division Aerodynamics & Structural Analysis Center that deal with all that and they have wind tunnels for tests.

What ten years! Can you prove when this program started, and what Pak makes or does not? But you cant. You dont have any evidence either to back up NDCs abilities or lack of- but if I state they dont, you insist they do, and give no evidence. How is that proof? I can have an Aerodynamics & Structural anal center out of my home with my mates, a couple have Phds in structural work- surely you think they can design a CM on their own? Please!!!!!

You say you can find a dozen of small- large firms involved in cruise missile development in India, China, why dont you name the indian ones and what they do and please show a made in india sticker attached to a piece of equipment to confirm its indian in origin.

My goodness- Godrej, Larsen & Toubro, Wipro, Satyam, Tata each of these industrial firms has dozens of projects to their name and manufacture systems as well. Can you name me one firm in Pak which makes Tx/Rx modules? In India there are some four at the very minimum, in fact more..

I have just listed companies and organisations that are involved in development of cruise missiles for pakistan, they are no small expert groups but have large facilities, many factories, production and development facilities.

..but no products!

Even if they are miniscule they are enough to produce the babur cruise missile. If we go by your theory of repainted chinese cruise missile, pakistan now has the neccesary infrastructure and know how in place to make the cruise missile and futher develop it so it makes no difference at all on the ground as the base and technology is there.

how do we know this? for all we know babur was an import, like the M-11s or whatever!

The percentage of components produced inhouse and those used off the shelf do vary. At the same time you will admit that while pakistani use of foreign components is higher, the turn around time for the products is shorter too.
Take the LCA, the project kicked off in 82, and it will be many years yet until india sees one operational. Pakistan can not afford to wait that long so it took a different route of getting as much help from the chinese as possible. Do most pakistani products have chinese input, sure they do. Do most indian working products have foreign input as well, yes they do.

India started off by trying to do everything themselves, and have now realized they need external help and are trying to line it up. Pakistan has always realised this and starts off getting as much help as possible and then replacing as much as it can with inhouse manufacturing. Different ways to do things, both will work. but one wastes less money.

Again, this is a common Pakistani self image myth- nothing personal intended- and I am not surprised to see you quoting it. The simple fact is that India designs and makes, Pakistan manufactures- there is a world of difference in terms of time and effort between the two. What it means is that if India were to similarly judge itself on similar grounds- it would state that the MKI is an Indian project, or that the Bison is an example of prudent project management- but that would be a mistake. India is trying to create an entire industry from scratch. By the nature of the beast, its a long gestation time, challenging and problematic effort. Lets look at the LCA- India today is making most of its components, and can design follow on variants- its other projects make use of different subsystems- where it has lagged it is accepting help when there is no other option, but consider- is there even a single pak program to make a radar or engine?

Therein lies the difference- ask someone familiar with the industrial capabilities of both countries and you will receive the same answer. I can send a stated requirement to India today, and firms will compete to design the entire chip, put me in touch with fabs outside to have it done and have the product delivered. If I am an internal Indian strategic partner, then SCL or some other fab will make the chip for me- now tell me, is there even one Pak firm able to do this? But you will have many such industries in india ajnd the PRC.

Thats the difference. Obviously if India asks Russia to design the LCA for it, and deliver it a production ready design, the TAT will be miniscule- but then, how will indians learn? Who does the flutter testing? Who does the coding of the mission computer? Who will teach them the intricacies of designing all the hydraulics and power management in the entire aircraft? Therein lies the difference. Unless you go down this path, you will never understand.

This is where infrastructure and abilities matter- India has windtunnels, supercomputers, proprietary software for everything from CFD to CAM, but none of these are possible unless you engage in a substantial effort. Most of these items are NOT available off the shelf.

No personal offence taken but this constant one-upmanship from the indian and pakistani crowd here is a bit annoying you must admit.

LOL, I understand!

Getting back to the topic, Ill be the first to admit that pakistan uses off the shelf components as much as it can in its products. Id be really pissed of if they didnt and tried reinventing the wheel. The production has evolved these days into Systems and if they can reuse components, all power to them and its great news as far as im concerned.

India is also realizing the same and in missiles (brahmos,arrow2), jetengines (for LCA), radar (elta), arjun (dead?) is seeking foreign help. It is the right thing to do if u ask me. And this is the way both india, pakistan and all the other countries will progress – not by reinventing but by using external technology.

Ah, but theres a difference- its not just off the shelf components. Eg if you notice- each of the Indian projects you mentioned is a massive effort, out of which some delayed subsystems have imported units for the interim. But the design, interfaces etc are all done locally. Now this is the crux- when it comes to Pak, where are the windtunnels, the test rigs for flight control systems, the actuator manufacturers and designers, the onboard guidance control designers and manufacturers? Where are even the design facilities with the infrastructure necessary to do high level design? If you drill down- you’ll see a complete lack of information and ability in these fields on the Pak side. But the same is not the case for the PRC and India. Both countries are willing to invest in all the expensive basic infrastructure that goes into these projects. Eg if you contact the Indian CII industry federation, they’ll even give you a list of these system manufacturers! But in the case of Pak- we merely have claims of ability, but no proof per se, even whilst Pak has a record of being far more export oriented in terms of arms and munitions than Pak ever was.

In fact- its clear, Pak normally imports off the shelf items or license manufactures third party products customized to its requirements- MBT-2000 ie Al Khalid, from other manufacturers. It can then state these as locally produced and which plays into the tit for tat war it has with India, and score PR points over ready systems etc. Is it mere coincidence that the “Babur” appeared when the Brahmos was launched b/w India and Russia? I think not. Look at the JF-17 for instance- where are Paks own mission computers, RWRs, tooling and production processes? All these items combine to define a nations industrial ability and design..this is what Sea Lord Lawrence stated when he pointed out that Pak is yet to make a trainer (?) on its own but some folks are claiming the ability to design and deliver LACMs. I am sure Pak had some design input in the Babur but frankly, its a rework of some Chinese LACM design.

You cannot just do a high level design and deliver the goods, especially with a MTCR restricted item!! But OTOH, if you do have a strategic ally, who is willing to support you..especially with little to no design infrastructure or even prior experience in the matter.

He does have a point you know- several of the products you linked in that Acig list, are actually analogues of commercial R/C products. It was discussed before and came up. So you cant use that link and say that Pak has been building turbojets for a long time etc.

I understand your point of view about it being derived from a chinese missile, but this is again coming into mere speculation has anybody seen the systems onboard to say yes they are definatly chinese in origin. There probably is foreign assistant in the missile, maybe from more countries than China, they do not want to disclose where they have helped, but again this would be going down the realm of speculation.

Dude, just take a look at a Hong Niao and the Babur. Take a look at the TEL and the casings of each of those missiles, in particular the cap, and look at the same as in Iranian service (license produced PRC gear…), and then the obvious fact- almost every “local” item in Pak service is a license produced Chinese product, from the JF-17 (FC-1), to the Al-Khalid (MBT-2000) etc

Pakistan has had the ability to manufacture missiles since the early 90s, the NDC who made the babur also was responsible for making a number of other pakistan balastic missiles, even if we assume that all the past balastic missiles were copies of Chinese and Korean technology after more than 10 years do you really think they learnt nothing from that experience and therefore unable to pour in that expertise into building the babur.

I can set up a webpage and say that I have experience in this, etc- same goes for the NDC. But where are their subsystems and products? Dont you find it simply amazing that pakistan which has put up every defence item it can make on export brochures has almost nothing in terms of high end avionics, guidance, aerospace subsystems, and then you say they are locally manufactured missiles…its contradictory.

This declaration of the missile being in operation and start of mass production could have another meaning to it that many of you over look. What if extensive testing has allready been carried out on the missile, and this test is just a PR stunt to show the world Pakistan has a working cruise missile, can you imagine how embarassing it would be for the top Pakistani military brass if on the first test the missile blew up or something went majorly wrong. Its obvious to me that the missile must of been tested prior to the PR launch, otherwise it makes no sence mass produce a missile like this unless like you say the technology has been transfered over.

So with little to no experience in cruise missile manufacture…Pakistan secretly develops and tests missiles, that too faster than anyone else worldwide and announces a public test once it is done…is this even realistic?
Not even one critical subsystem is known to be made in Pakistan…ok so Pak imported all of these…well what of the MTCR then? Does it make sense to run across the world and do this and get caught as compared to just depending on china which is trustworthy? Ok, what about basic infrastructure for missile design in Pakistan? How many windtunnels are there? Any supercomputers?? To conduct necessary modelling?

The answer is obvious..

What do you mean nowhere, the facilities have been setup since the early 90s NDC has a number of research and development units within it self that have been working on missile technology for more than a decade. They have units that they specifically work on modern navigational systems (GCC), facilities to built telemetry systems for data transmissions, production facilities for computer and hardware equipment, Aerodynamics & Structural Analysis Center, DESTO another R&D agency I can go on and on. If my memory serves me correctly NESCOM or a related government agency tested a UAV turbo jet engine successfully many years ago in sea skimming mode.

All words, I am sorry to say…I too can set up a webpage and claim these…but actual products? Zilch. Setting up a few rigs and “expert groups” for sys-integration does not translate into large scale sys integration or product design and development. For the PRC and India I can find dozens of small firms, large firms, Govt companies with infrastructure and track record of products…but for Pakistan we have ready made entire systems which appear from literally nowhere…come on!!

Some universities are involved in R&D as well, they mostly are run by military command and funding comes from within the military as well. To say there is no facilities setup is not correct at all.

The facilities set up are miniscule compared to what are required.

After the WMD-Iraq thing, nobody trusts you guys. 😀 😀 😀 😀