It is bigger. About 1/3rd heavier. Have a look at the company hired as design consultants. Italian, with a proven ability to build light carriers with ski-jumps, do a lot of work for the Italian navy . . . 😀

Acc. to Rupak @ BR, the Italains werent involved in the ADS, which made the “Italian look” puzzling..

Its range at an altitude that puts it far below the horizon of target vessels is Klubs advantage.

Given that the Brahmos can fly at a variety of trajectories, and that the range is but a MTCR imposed limitation which can be overcome by local boffins (and there is already ample evidence to ascertain they have the capability to do so)- this is a semantic point.

As I’ve said ad nauseum if you have to attack an alerted target all bets are off anyway. Supersonic performance is no guarantee, on its own, of striking the target. Simply there is nothing magical about a supersonic missile and there are lots of systems amply capable of dealing with them. If you have to saturate the target to ensure the kill anyway do it with cheap(er) subsonic missiles.

What if I saturate it with supersonic missiles? Which are harder to engage? Hmm, what if I manage to get in a platform through your defended zone and launch a supersonic missile, which goes active at the last moment?
For every move, there is a countermove. I found it interesting you quoted the Israeli engagement- which of course was a cockup by the Israelis, but hey- if that had been a supersonic missile…

See earlier point….unless LO design technology is incoporated physical size IS a factor in RCS. From pure front-aspect Brahmos will have a low signature. From an aspect other than that, which would require the missile to be flying directly at the RF emitter, there is still a large missile body housing the ramjet. 3M-54E’s kill dart does not suffer the same handicap.

What makes you think that the airframe body is not heavily treated to lower its signature? Also, the Mission planning system will take care to plot a Brahmos trajectory that mininimizes its signature vs detected sensors.
Arent you assuming that the Brahmos is easy to detect, come what may? If I were you- I’d spend more time considering that given the repeated reference to stealthing and low signature, the missile designers may have worked something out viz this angle.

You feeling alright Gary?. You’ve just proven my point after all these years. I would have said obsolescent rather than obsolete, but, essentially I agree. If Pakistan where to take delivery of the same order of frigates that Singapore just have then it doesnt matter if the Indians shoot BrahMos, Sea Eagle or Uran at them. They’ll still have saturate the target as the missile individual performance wont count for anything. Ergo supersonics, sexy as they look, are a waste of effort.

Highly debatable. If India launches Brahmos and they are not picked up, thanks to tac surprise etc, every second counts when it comes to a supersonic missile. The missile travels the distance in a third of the time.

Austin,

AFAIK VL Seawolf, RAM and ESSM have all been trialled against supersonic skimmers though obviously the degree of ‘anger’ was quite low. Sunburn is without doubt a bigger dinosaur, but, I think its aesthetics are far sweeter than the Granit/Yakhont snout!. No argument on the damage potential of either Sunburn or BrahMos – if they hit both will be devastating. You’ve just got to get one through.

Which again far outweighs the performance of a subsonic missile.

Nick

Nick I specifically did NOT ask for the job description of the IN chappie Austin talked to. I simply said that because some bloke in uniform tells you something its not definitely gospel because navies (and ships) aren’t full of enthusiasts like us. I had one USN guy, many years back, on one of Spruances telling me that they didnt have to sweat ‘Extracet’ missiles because they had Phalanx. He wasnt a weapons guy naturally!.

Your assumption is and was that Austin does not know this, and needs to be told this. Why? If he has to contest your assumption, he has to provide details. Kind of heads you win, tails he loses? 🙂

I still doubt the good General would ever say ‘well the russians dangled this carrot and we went for it like a terrier after a rat’!.:cool:

Another assumption. 😉 We have repeated statements from the Indian side about how & why they went about selecting a partner, and finally chose Russia thanks to its experience with supersonic missiles. One’d rather take them at their word, rather than your guess, dont you think? He could as well have stated that the Russians offered these, we considered that and these are the advantages of supersonic missiles- but no! He actually points out that a decision was made to go for supersonic missiles & the russians were chosen by the Indian side. Considering that the alliance was pushed through from the Indian side & so is the hypersonic missile program, I’d think that they are doing what they said that they would, ie that they are following a well thought out path. Basically the Indian side has chosen the growth path for faster missiles and is proceeding on that path. There is also the fact, that this is not the only LACM program being pursued by India, and other programs to field low cost, subsonic CMs are also in the works. 😉

I still dont see the strategic or tactical need for BrahMos when you have evolved carrier air, a developing SSN programmes and a real, near-term, need for littoral ASW!.

Is overkill wrong? Lets see- the MOD can barely fund RN ships on active patrols and has to park them, but does it prevent the RN from hankering for the best technology for their ships? I think not. The Brahmos program was chosen for a reason- anyone familiar with modern AD systems would state that the need of the hour is to develop fast, low flying penetrators or extremely stealthy ones. The latter is more expensive, as compared to the former whose tech is already mature- the Indian side chose that approach, and it will apply to several programs.

I’m still amazed that Gary hasn’t mentioned the paradigm shift that see’s me, with my track record, being the one defending a Russian (partially) supersonic missile!. I though the irony of that would have him chuckling from here to Christmas!.

One swallow does not spring bring. 😉

Great!. Bring them on here and we’ll get a serious discussion going.

You are kidding right 🙁 – or you havent heard of the Official Secrets act, a nice little bit we inherited from your guys and kept it even after you left. Rest assured the chances of the Russian side debating this is more likely..

I’ve discussed these issues with lads from BAE Systems – I go to Filton and Wharton amongst other places with work quite a bit – and have had the debate with some real AAW specialists and all agree that big supersonic missiles have had there day and that the future is in cheap, light, intelligent ‘swarming’ weapons. Brahmos may be very advanced and look pretty, but, it is already defeated technology. That, I am afraid, is inescapable.

What you have basically stated is that the UK is going for the cheap, swarming solution- that may be inescapable. The rest, isnt. What I do know is that the adoption of the Brahmos by the IN really caused a diplomatic storm including some angry faces from several western diplomatic representatives, & a lot of folks who considered the IO region their pond. If things were as blase as you state they were, I doubt that feelings would be so visceral. I can well imagine the fun when the hypersonic program kicks off and delivers. 😉

The onus is on those that are saying pakistan has not manufacturered the missile itself to prove otherwise. Just because such technical information is not availble in the public domain does not mean it dont exist. Not every military takes in defence reporters to explain to them how their systems work, the babur is a new missile for pakistan they arnt likly to release this kind of information your after just yet.

Technical assistance from the outside is probably a reasonable thing to do to save time and money but to say its a recopied chinese missle without any hard justification and facts is just wishful thinking on those who dont really understand the wide picture of having such a missile. Regardless of who made it, it will hurt the enemy just as much.

Let me make it even more straightforward so that you understand what I am saying since you have missed the point entirely:

I say that there is no evidence to prove that Pakistan has mastered any of these critical subsystems or that it has a track record of manufacturing variants of them. I also dont buy the claim that because Pakistan has “made” earlier missiles it should be able to do so etc. Because these same doubts exist for all those systems as well, and all those systems are widely touted to be knockoffs of PRC and NoKo missiles as well, in fact imports.

So since you guys cannot provide any evidence of Pak making these systems or even having the production ability to license manufacture these units, then please tell me- why would anyone – Indian or otherwise, not come to the obvious conclusion that the Babur is another derivative of a proven PRC missile? Such as the Hong Niao, to which it bears more than a passing similarity?

Lastly, Pakistan has a habit of testing a missile, declaring it operational moreorless and then rushing it into service. No country can afford to do that with a developmental missile- this is also another bit of proof for the Babur being an off the shelf ready product customized to Paks requirements.

Now go ahead and prove us all wrong with evidence to counter each of the above. Not by saying “y’all are Indians so shut up” as eloquently as Mohammad Ali put it! :rolleyes: :p

Discussing PAF and IAF on this forum is a total waste of time. All PAF and IAF threads need to be monitored and flaming posts should be deleted.

Actually, till GD started with his usual PRC uber alles- I daresay it was going well. Why not start a PAF-IAF thread and endeavour to steer it? You could take the initiative and lets see how it goes.

Until the mods start doing it, i am not coming back to this site when you have other sites like DT where you can discuss IAF and PAF wihout having to scan through posts afters posts of flames.

Aah, DT, wonderful site. Pakistani super-mods who instantly ban any uppity Indian or anti-Pak type. I’d take Keypub anyday.

Dont want to get into statistical gimics.

Especially when they are unfavourable to one’s position, right? 🙂

My Prof used to say, there is a lie, and there is a big lie and there is statistics. You better visit India and Pakistan and you’ll know the standard of living of the people of two countries. I have not seen a more rediculous thing than this GDP.

Actually, I know of & have met dozens of folks who have visited both countries. The funny thing is that per all accounts, Pak seems to be stuck in a time warp- eg, my Brit mates who visited Peshawar, Lahore, Karachi & Delhi, Hyderabad and Chandigarh (they are in the jaw-jaw crowd, ie diplomatese) keep talking of how chaotic India is and how the economic trickle down syndrome is visible even in the smallest towns..but Pak seems to be in the same place as it was decades earlier. The point is simple, you guys need to send the army back to the barracks, get some political stability for a few decades and concentrate on a broad based economic outlook..Otherwise it wont work.

This Pak self belief that somehow no matter how bad things in Pak are, India will be worse, is not going to work.

Take a look at India itself. The path set by the PRC in terms of economic development, and SE Asia is being watched closely, and theres hardly a day without some Korean/ Japanese delegation that is not feted, and their brains picked for ideas and suggestions..you cant live in a web of make believe..

Your choice, though.

Poverty stricken manpower did not make India an empire and in fact made it part of someone else’s empire.

Hmm perhaps you need a lesson in reading comprehension. I did say the British empire and pointed out how poverty actually assists militarization, provided another segment of the economy can enable it. The same happened in world war 1 as well, but stuck as you are on your hyperbole, you have to contest this. The British empire had no compulsions in using Indian manpower (including that from present day Pakistan) in suppressing the chinese…guess you werent around then to tell them different!

Colonial battles of the British usually involved both sides sustaining very light casualties because the poverty-stricken natives simply broke and ran after a few were shot by rifles or blown up by a small naval cannon dragged ashore from a Royal Navy warship.

Sure, sure- in fact, it had Colonel Blimps sipping chai at noon, playing a spot of cricket and waving a flag and saying “good show chaps”..lol, man you sure are a hoot.

Indeed, the British & John Company wept in fear and despair, and Hong Kong was given as a gift to them (so that they stopped wailing)…anything else? :rolleyes: 😀

The battles of the British conquest of India were prime examples of this. Fifty thousand Indians basically melted away from the battlefield at Plassey before several hundred Europeans.

Some battles, not all. Given that the British brought stability and were quite better than the Mughals they replaced in some regions, I dont really grudge several groups from not fighting their own compatriots who were in British service. But then there were other cases in ’57, plus the umpteen revolts which were much more brutal.The same poverty stricken groups coalesced to found the Marathas which became an empire in their own right.. I think you need to learn more about history..but somehow Bearcat/GD I dont think you can do so..you are more interested in scoring asinine self goals about the PRC while attempting to flame viz India..:D

Lawd help us, you havent brought in olympics and synchronized swimming yet..:D

There were no mass slaughter just a lot of people running away from conflict.

ROTFL.. I can sure say that you would be the last person to approach for any account of subcontinental history, as bloody tortured as it is/was, your words are an even bigger farce..

As for China in Korea, indoctrinated communist armies like the Chinese and the North Vietnamese were among the few that can effectively use a poverty stricken population.

Yup, bar the PRC nobody knows how to make use of a poverty stricken populace…I am actually clutching my sides here as I read this…of all the things to claim dominance in..but you couldnt even let that go. 😀

To be perfectly honest, the impact of air power is practically nil. Pakistan have pretty much won the air war in each but had very limited effect on the ground. No amount of air power could change the logistical nightmare of having the eastern half on your country separated by enemy territory while fighting a full scale civil war.

LOL, if thats your depiction of “history”, and you are talking to someone who has had kith and kin involved,and then we have the Golden Dragon version of history! You make me crack up dude..Bangladesh was a defenders dream…an attackers nightmare…but never mind, never mind! As regards “won the air war”, perhaps the PLAAF should get trained by these uberwarriors then. :p

Communist China sacrificed men for land in Korea, basically pushing an extremely powerful American military from the Yalu to the 38th. The longest retreat in American history bar none.

Indeed, they won the war even. Chairman Mao could do no wrong.

The PLA basically did it without any air cover whatsoever.

Excellent strategy, and which is why every nation should emulate it in the 21st century. 😀 :rolleyes:

The United States bombed at will along the entire breadth and length of the Korean peninsula — the stories of “MiG Alley” notwithstanding.

Yep, those damned Americans and their propoganda about MiG alley. Why dont they admit that the Chinese slaughtered them at will w/o aircover?

Anything else, master?

It can be an even better propaganda tool for the side with the much smaller air force. Vietnam was a prime example. The NVAF was tiny compared to the USAF/USN.

But they used their aircraft correctly and destroyed a few US fighters in a few air to air engagements that had no impact on the war itself but created a powerful image of the smaller nation standing up to a superpower even in the air.

You should be writing for Janes & Brasseys with your excellent grasp of history and warfare. 😀 😎

LOL, I guess till more JF-17 info comes along and is relevant to the thread, we might as well discuss all this..so apologies in advance..

And we witnessed the same thing in Labenon.

I would be hesitant in applying the Lebanon experience to all conflicts. Both Israel and Hezbollah did not behave as other countries would do viz their regional conflicts..
Eg the israelis fear of casualties (thanks to their low population base) makes them risk averse when it comes to using their infantry in a high risk environment, and they prefer armour, which to be frank is a good target for mobile guerilla teams.
Similarly, when it comes to Hezbollah, they too were running short of ammo and couldnt sustain the level of casualties..

An Indo-Pak matchup would be far more brutal, and both countries would field highly trained and committed units determined to achieve their respective objectives. What then happens here is attrition and what Flex states- non battlefield considerations, namely economic intervene, since both states are developing countries. But here, India on account of size has the advantage and will have larger reserves of strategic commodities.

IOW, both sides will try to keep it below the nuclear threshold but many factors will combine for results, and unless Pakistan is able to seize the initiative, it becomes a war of attrition. In a war of attrition, India wins.

Now Pak has always sought quality to give it that “edge” to balance Indias size. Mostly- it has been a mixed bag, not really worked, but its a worthwhile policy. OTOH, even that has disappeared. In quality and numbers, India seems to have the edge. If the JF-17s and F-16s were all developed and delivered overnight, it would make an impact- but what will happen is, that as these come in, India will be inducting MKIs, MRCAs etc etc and upgrading its fighters..so in otherwords, the PAF cannot deter a limited war or even contribute to it by stopping an indian attack.

I’d say its safe to predict that the Indian side will now concentrate on LRAAMs and more EW abilities,- towed decoys etc, to comprehensively outweigh Pak procurement.

The silver lining for Pak is if PRC develops these items, at least then Pak will ahve a procurement pipeline available to it.

Thats the point, with maasive modernisation programme India is engaging in with all 3 service arms Pakistan is just being left standing. By comparison to India pakistan looks pathetic.

The other side of the story is that this modernization was long overdue. Ie much of the stuff done today was actually intended to run a decade back…$$$$…