Nick_76Is there a document/link/news source that pens out IAF requirements for MRCA? Would appreciate it.
Farooq, too many reports – let me recount
After Kargil, the IAF did force planning, and realised that their 23BNs and MiG23 MFs were getting long in the tooth and needed a replacement in a similar weight category.
Choice of the AF- the Mirage 2000-V, AF wanted a quick purchase, with HAL quickly assembling CKD/SKD kits. To “sell” the idea- since it would have come in before even the 27s retired, they also pitched it as a nuclear deterrent force.
The CAG, India raised objections to single vendor deal (it was against the newly decided Govt acquisitions procedure after the Kargil weapons purchase issue)
So now the MRCA became a multi-vendor issue, M-MRCA that is
Contenders Mirage 2000-V and MiG-29M2, plus F-16
Again too few contenders. The IAF now relaxed the weight criterion
Enter the EF, Gripen, F/A-18
Deal takes too much time. Dassault cant keep Mirage line open, and withdraws it. Rafale is the replacement
So now from quick assembly of Mirage 2000-Vs with little to not TOT, we have a full blown deal with TOT, offsets, lifecycle costs and strategic concerns (US support for nuke deal, Russian embargo on engines for FC-1).
The revised Indian RFP apparently calls for an AESA as standard, and the scientific community wants TOT for the radar as well. The IAF wants complete source code access. The Defence Procurement Procedure specifies upto 90% TOT. MiG has specified they’ll meet it. The rest are not so sure- but who knows, EF may give a tough fight.
As you can see the M-MRCA has taken on a life of its own.
While coming to MRCA and performance, the IAF may “upgrade” its performace, but wont want fighters that were below its originally envisaged plan- which is why light fighters are at a disadvantage imo, and the F-16 is too tied with Pak to stand a chance.
The IAF has made presentations, the rest is upto the GOI, as to which fighter is ultimately chosen.
Nick_76I guess you mixed Pakistan with Israel. Pakistan ‘buys’ most of its arms and gets few in donation.
What Pakistan has got from the US, is mostly donation. The best equipment in Pak service today, is mostly donation, bar the Agostas.
Nick_76I dont think so if there is any information available regarding how much % of the US aid (which doesnt even covers the indirect costs of Afghan war on Pakistan) is being spent on F-16s.
That information is available. 144 Million in the initial batch.
Apart from F-16s, amount worth of significant money has gone into purchase of other equipment too.
The list above shows that, but the 300 Million cap only allows for a very limited amount (vs the wishlist) to be included in the grants.
PAF must be concerned about the recent crash rates, They seem to be getting worse and worse, I hope they dont go as bad as undia’s mig-21 crashes.
India’s MiG-21 crash issues have been solved by phasing out the earlier gen attrition prone FL’s and M’s. I would sugges that unless Pakistan phases out its Mirage fleet, these problems will only worsen.
Nick_76Cheers thanks for the prompt reply.
So IAF would look like this ~2015
~170 MKIs
230 MKI
~50ish from MRCA, Mig-35 most probably..~?
Could be any type bar the F-16 or Gripen, which are too light for IAF requirements.
~40 LCA
More like 80 aircraft. 40 aircraft by 2012, and a minimum of 12-14 aircraft per year thereafter.
~ xx? Mig-29s
Same number as current. Around ~ 65
~ Mig-21s??
125 Bisons plus MiG trainers at squadron level, and MOFTU, plus reserves.
~ xx? Jags
100 + 20 + 17 – attrition
~ xx? M2ks
Current 52, plus 12-20 more.
Nick_76defensenews
Posted 11/27/06 15:27
$1B Aircraft Datalink Effort Takes Off in India 😮
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has launched a five-year, $1 billion effort to digitally link a variety of aircraft via satellite to ground stations.
The first of four phases will start in December, a senior IAF official said. Phase 1 will develop and install software to link aircraft and ground stations. Field trials will be carried out in Phase 2, with any necessary platform modifications made in Phase 3. Under Phase 4, the aircraft will be networked with ground stations. Details on the satellite component of this project remain classified.
Program officials are seeking one or more contractors to provide systems, technological expertise and operational assistance to the IAF. Requests for proposals will be sent to companies in India, Britain, France, Israel, Singapore and United States.
The IAF has nominated Bangalore-based, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) to oversee and integrate the project, said a senior HAL official. Details will be firmed up after outside contractors are shortlisted.
The IAF official said the project aims to develop an Aerospace Planning and Execution system through which network-centric applications can be carried out.
Service officials plan to network a few aircraft and ground stations in an Operational Data Link pilot project, allowing the development of standard operating procedures, the training of operational and maintenance personnel, and giving the Air Force experience integrating platform mission computers, the IAF official said.
The networked aircraft will include shooters — fighters, armed helicopters, transport aircraft and sensors — airborne warning and control system aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles, and space and ground radars.
The command-and-control ground stations will include real-time centers in the theater of operations as well as at the regional and base levels to monitor the common operational picture and initiate action. Centers that do not operate in real time will track and allocate assets and plan missions.
The data links between mobile platforms will include V/UHF and L-band radios and fiber-optic networks. •
E-mail: [email]vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com[/email].
Nick_76DSCA list includes items that Pakistan and US have agreed upon, usually during the meetings held by Pakistan Defense Consultative Group (DCG) … ie they would be sold/transfered if Pakistan decides to buy the item in question depending on their need/requirement/priority/budget etc etc.
Mohammad, DSCA is the first part of the process..once it gets cleared, then its up for financing. Every year Pak has a 300 Million $ cap, out of which it will have to pay a substantial chunk for financing the more expensive projects – eg the 54 MLU+New F-16s, rest is then split amongst the remaining “wishlist” in the DSCA. At this time, the US side can review & release items that they agree to or which Pak can afford, depending upon Paks priorities as well. All in all, the DSCA list is merely a shopping list, and nothing on it – bar what has already appeared on the contracts, is certain, for sure.
The financial cap apart, the Democrat congress has now introduced HR1 based on the 9/11 commission hearings to withhold military aid to Pakistan to make the Pak Army/ ISI wholeheartedly support the US in Afghanistan.
Based on the above, its possible that even the 300 Million$ pipeline from the US could close.
The alternative, is of course, for Pak to buy its arms out of its own pocket, like India does.
Lastly, if we see the list above, it serves as a useful reference of what Pakistan has actually purchased/ recieved, as compared to what items, tires it has kicked or merely expressed an interest in.
As you can make out, a couple of big ticket purchases- PGMs or P3s with AEW alone, can use up the 300 Million tranche for years to come, unless the US agrees to very liberal financing terms (unlikely, as I said above) and hence use up the quota – all the other items, such as RF TOW2As , well Pak might have to pay for them out of its own pocket, and it might prove to be a bit too much for Pak.
Nick_76On the Indian MMRCA tender…
India’s foreign debt to Russia is not to be forgotten although not a major factor, it’s still a factor.
Thats being used up elsewhere, also 900 Million is frankly, not such a biggie as long as the Indian economy keeps pace..
Defense News
India’s Soviet Debt Leads to Joint Projects With Russia
By NABI ABDULLAEV, MOSCOW
Russia has used a well-worn lever — Soviet-era debts from arms sales — in a new way: persuading India to participate in joint efforts to develop, market and buy new weapons.
Trading debt for new commitments helped Moscow seal arms sales to Syria in 2005 and Algeria in 2006. In India, the tactic is deepening the bilateral defense-industrial relationship.
Indian and Russian officials said the projects to be wholly or partially financed by the country’s $900 million debt include:
• Developing GLONASS, Russia’s analogue of the U.S. Global Positioning System. India would become the sole foreign country allowed to use the system without restriction.
Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said India may develop smaller satellites for the GLONASS system and deliver them to orbit on its rockets.
• Building a titanium-dioxide production plant in India, which will ship to Russia three-quarters of its planned 40,000-ton annual output, along with 45,000 tons of titanium slag.
This will cover 90 percent of the materials needed by Russia’s VSMPO-Avisma titanium plant, which is the major supplier of titanium for Boeing and Airbus, the daily Kommersant reported Jan. 26. Russia will own 55 percent of the plant.
• Developing a multirole transport aircraft through a partnership of Russia’s Irkut and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics.
India might invest $800 million of its debt in the titanium and airlifter projects, said Vladimir Dmitriyev, who runs Russia’s state-owned Vneshekonombank.
• Developing and building Sukhoi’s fifth-generation fighter by 2009 through a deal concluded in late January. Russian and Indian officials declined to offer more details.
Dmitry Vasiliyev, who analyses the arms trade for the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies here, said that the fighter deal may lead India to withdraw its tender for 126 fighter jets.
“This debt-for-investment strategy applied to joint development of the fifth-generation fighter allows Indians an access to Russian military technologies they covet,” Vasiliyev said.
“After all, Indians strive to develop their own aviation industry, and not be buying all the time.”
Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony said India would buy 347 Russian T-90 tanks in 2007, a deal Russian observers said might be worth $900 million.
Russia and India also agreed to hold naval exercises in the Pacific Ocean in April and paratroopers’ exercises on a Russian military base in Pskov in September. •
Nick_76Technically, no doubt about it. Infact it is uncanny how closely the new MiG-35 parallels the F-16E/F in terms of the basic concept: take an aging but still competitive airframe and make it as versatile as you possibly can by stuffing it brimfull of the most modern electronics at hand.
Increased fuel load, AESA radar, internal IRST & laser designation capability, updated engines, better cockpit, comprehensive ECM… it’s the same basic idea.
The big advantage for the MiG is that it does not come with any political strings attached. LM can say what they want, but it seems very doubtful if they would allow India to gain the kind of access RSK MiG is likely to grant, based on recent events not only with India itself. Are they even in a position to make that decision independently by themselves or is there the possibility of American government agencies intervening??
It is also likely to carry a cheaper price tag.
Ah, but you get what you pay for. The chance of including indigenous Indian equipment is increased vastly by this fact. India seems satisfied with their pay-off in the Su-30MKI programme, I see no reason why the same approach should fail here. And the airframe itself and some of the systems should already be paid for by RSK MiG themselves (development of the MiG-29M2) and India through the MiG-29K project which has a lot of commonality. The latter would also be beneficial for the IAF’s logistics which should be a big plus given the positive zoo of airframes they already operate.
Customizing any of the other competitors in the MRCA programme to the same extent is almost certainly going to be much more difficult and expensive, if not completely impossible.
Very good points and I agree with you, but I have some strikes against the MiG-35
1. At the end of the day, its still an upgrade, and I wonder how relevant it is to the IAF which will keep it around for 30 more years. In contrast, the EF and Rafale are better. Especially in terms of signature and network centricity and overall sophistication
2.Overreliance on Russia for the IAFs fleet. The MKI, the 5G and the MRCA too? Too many eggs in one basket, and the IAFs has maintained dual sourcing for a reason.
3.This will be good learning for Indian industry, but there are advantages to India acquiring a completely different package from say EF or Rafale, which will provide more insights into other concepts such as sensor fusion, manufacturing processes etc as well as built around COTS, as compared to manufacturing Russian avionics and items which rely on key processors etc sourced from Russia. Another key thing is English, believe it or not- its no joke working with russians via an interpreter for every tiny thing
4. Munitions, the MiG-35 is really weak here, since it still relies on the R-77 and the rest of the munitions package which is frankly, getting long in the tooth.
5. The MiG record in terms of spares support and product support, apart from Irkut and the 27, has been abysmal, after the fall of the soviet union. Their designers were arrogant, their OEM partners unresponsive, and tended to ignore Indian concerns and blame them alone.
My key concern is 2, the rest, are well manageable
Nick_76India hasnt contributed to MKI/29K r&d costs. MIG-35 is very unlikely u can add anything.
India paid the contract costs at a time, when it didnt have to, and got several key items to completion. The money was diverted at the time thanks to Yeltsins cabal and Irkut ultimately got the money back from the establishment.
Of course, I know I am responding to the forum troll & you’ll respond with more nonsense. But anyways.
Nick_76Pakistan canceled the order for these back in 2003-4.
Correct.
Pakistans wishlist as cleared by the DSCA can be found here
http://www.dsca.mil
Whats actually cleared by the US keeping in line with their political issues and budgetary resources allocated to Pak,’Foreign Military Financing’ to Pakistan (currently at $300m/year until 2009, can be found here
http://www.pentagon.mil/Contracts/
Hence, It is much more reliable to look at contracts and grants.
There is also the possibility that a lot of the stuff even limited to 300 Million $ could be held back contingent to Pak support in Afghanistan.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/01/AR2007020100140.html
The Democrats for instance have raised this:
The U.S. bill, known as H.R. 1, calls for an end to U.S. military assistance to Pakistan if it fails to stop the Taliban operating from its territory. The bill has already been endorsed by the House of Representatives and will be sent to the Senate for consideration.
Nick_76MiG press release touting their wunderplane for which the IAF will have to no doubt, shell out development costs.
RAC “MiG” presents its latest MiG-35 fighter at AERO INDIA 2007
At AERO INDIA 2007 the Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) “MiG” presents its latest multifunctional fighter – the MiG-35.
This aircraft available as both a single-seat and double-seat version joins the MiG unified family of “4++” generation fighter aircraft. At the heart of this family of aircraft is the MiG-29K/KUB fighter which is serially produced for the Indian Navy. The characteristics shared by these aircraft are so close that this has helped achieve the high degree of unification among various types of fighter aircraft, including single-seat and twin-seat version. All the MiG fighters from the new unified family are in the category of multifunctional combat aircraft.
The MiG-35 is capable of the following:
Winning an aerial dog fight with the best fighter aircraft in the world
Successfully counteracting existing and future attack aircraft and missiles
Destroying ground and sea-surface targets with high-precision weapons without the need to enter the enemy’s air defense zone
Conduct aerial reconnaissance using optic-electronic and radio technical equipment;
Participate in group actions and acting as the “control unit” for groups of aircraft.
By maintaining the best qualities of the MiG-29 (defined by its integral aerodynamic configuration and other structural features), the unified family of fighters has a number of key strategic features including improved combat effectiveness and survivability, open architecture avionics, improved operational performance and an expandable weapons suite.
The increased number of weapons the aircraft can carry and the larger fuel capacity have led to an increase in the maximum take-off weight of the MiG-35, the aircraft is best described as being in the medium fighter category rather than the light fighter category.
With respect to combat, flight and operational performances the MiG-35 is the optimal combat aircraft for those countries operating fighter fleets based on heavy, medium and light aircraft.
The MiG-35 is a real air warrior designed for repeated heavy duty operations during times of war. During the development of the aircraft special attention has been paid to the improvement of the following aspects of its operational performance:
Considerable increase of the reliability of the aircraft, engine and avionics
Service life extended to 40 years and 6000 flight hours;
Engine TBO increased to 1000 flight hours;
Cost per flight hour of the MiG-35 flight hour is almost 2.5 times lower than the MiG-29’s;
The MiG-35 is designed for on-condition maintenance with all the checking and servicing procedures to be performed directly by the operating unit, which adds to the combat readiness of the aircraft.
The setup of a dedicated service support center and consignment depot, which are due to become part of the integrated logistic support system, will dramatically increase the after-sales support for MiG fighter aircraft in India.A big factor contributing to the improvement of the combat effectiveness and survivability of the MiG-35 is the airborne radio-electronic equipment based on new-generation technologies:
The MiG-35 is the first Russian fighter equipped with onboard radar which has active phased array radar (AESA radar). This radar has been developed by the “Phazotron-NIIR” Corporation as part of the “Zhuk” family of radars. RAC “MiG” is the world leader in operating phased array radars. The MiG-31, inducted by the Russian Air Force in 1981, was the first fighter with phased array radar in the world. The multifunctional “Zhuk” family AESA radar allows for a substantial increase in the detection range of aerial and ground targets as well as augmenting the number of simultaneously tracked and attacked targets.
A revolutionary feature of the MiG-35 is the integration of the most advanced optic-electronic sighting and targeting systems. The developers utilized unique technologies from the Russian space program when creating these systems. The MiG-35 is equipped with in-built multi-channel surveying-and-sighting optic-electronic system which has an extended range. The multi-channel optic-electronic station to be fitted to the aircraft in a pod allows for round-the-clock navigation, detection, sighting and reconnaissance.
The MiG-35 self-defense system includes the most up-to-date radio and optical devices ensuring timely detection and counteraction of enemy fighters and air defense.
The MiG-35s high combat effectiveness is predetermined by the following structural innovations:
Compared to MiG-29 the MiG-35 has a considerably increased fuel capacity, augmented by a number of external fuel tanks (up to 5) and an in-flight refueling system. The MiG-35 is capable of acting as a tanker-aircraft if equipped with the PAZ-МК refueling pod.
The increased number of external load points allows the aircraft to carry various weapon configurations in combination with the external fuel tanks.The feasibility of integrating into the avionics and weapons suites the perspective systems of Russian design (which were earlier offered only for export), as well as ordnance and avionics of international origin.
Reduced radar signature.
A complex of technical and technological systems (e.g. onboard oxygen-generating station) ensuring self-sufficient aircraft deployment.
The incorporation of technologies to prevent corrosion of the airframe and main systems. These meet the highest standards of protection for ship-borne fighters, which can substantially facilitate aircraft operation in tropical climates.
A program of technical training is in place which consists of interactive computer-based training and a range of simulators which include a mobile full-mission simulator. The training system has been developed to be utilized for all aircraft in the unificated family of fighter aircraft.
The MiG-35 fighter is a state-of-the-art aircraft designed by RAC “MiG”. It was rolled out on the 9th of January 2007 in the presence of Sergey Ivanov, Deputy Chairman of the Russian Government, Defense Minister, and General Vladimir Mikhailov, Commander-in-chief of the Russian Air Force.
According to Vladimir Mikhailov, the MiG-35 will be in demand by both the Russian Air Force and international customers. The fighter will be offered to the Indian Air Force for the MMRCA tender (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft).
The program of development and production of the MiG-35 envisages a large-scale technology transfer and further cooperation with the Indian industry. In particular it is planned to:
involve Indian companies in the design and manufacture of avionics including the one pertaining to the new generation
set up licensed production of the MiG-35, along with all its major systems, at HAL. There will be no limits to the transfer of technology
utilize the industrial infrastructure created for operation, overhaul and series production of “MiG” and “Su” aircraft
develop future joint programs for combat aircraft upgrades.
Nick_76I’ll reply to the nonsense you have written if I have the time, keep waitin’..:rolleyes: :diablo:
Nick_76http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1077376&postcount=555
As far as Kaveri engine (to power LCA) is concerned we have worked on the gas turbine engine technology and this has enabled GTRE to develop Kaveri engine and in realizing the dry thrust, re-heat thrust almost 90-93 per cent of the expected performance. Our current plan is to leverage the hard earned knowledge and invite risk sharing partnership in completing the development and certification processes. Efforts are being made to formalise this partnership programme as early as possible with leading engine houses that have responded. .In parallel, we are also working on the marine version of the Kaveri engine and have made substantial progress in this.
Nick_76So that makes 141 in total? Good news for the LCA programme this is the kind of commitment that it needs I just jope we hear more about official orders for the IAF soon.
No, 17 engines for the PV’s and 8 LSP batch. Not 117.
And 24 now, for the first 20 on order.
Another 20 engines for the N-LCA are to be ordered in the future.
Another 20 for the second batch of LCA, are likely to be ordered if the Kaveri is not ready by IOC.
But mass orders for the Ge404 are unlikely unless the Kaveri fails.
Nick_76seems they have used the Akash project as a stalking horse to quietly do all of this ‘under the radar’ as it were. all this C3I stuff and various levels of radars I seen in one akash slide.
No, that project is different. Akash tech has helped in the experience, but this is way more comprehensive and expensive.
the next endo-atmospheric test is supposedly using a radar licensed and tinkered with from a unnamed country. rumous speak of a Thales master-xx set.
Those rumours are rumours…the picture of the MFCR is similar to a half dozen types, including the Master-xx types..
Sign In
