Nick_76I take it thats a proposal for the Rose-3, for 14 aircraft?
Flex, thanks mate.
33 (Multi-Role) Wing, PAF Base Kamra (Minhas)
15 Squadron ‘Cobras’ Mirage 5F AD/Attack
25 Squadron ‘Night Strike Eagles’ Mirage 5F AD/Attack
32 (Fighter Ground Attack) Wing, PAF Base Masroor
Squadron ‘Bandits’ Mirage IIIO/IIIDP AD/Attack
8 Squadron ‘Haider’ Mirage 5PA2/3 Land/Sea Attack
22 Squadron (OCU) ‘Ghazis’ Mirage 5F/5PA Combat Training
Mirage IIIBE
CCS
Mirage Squadron Mirage IIIO/5PA Tactics Training
34 (Fighter) Wing, PAF Base Rafiqui
5 Squadron ‘Falcons’ Mirage IIIEP/RP/DP AD/Reconnaissance
Say 18 per squadron. Thats (say) 6 full up squadrons, and you’d get 108 aircraft. Say another 30 airframes in reserve. (Being liberal)…and thats around 108 plus another 30 non upgraded long in the tooth airframes.
Rest aircraft all used for spares.:confused:
Nick_76The question is, where was the photo taken?
Nick_76The Koreans have a very mature ship building industry, their combat ship building skills are self evadent just look at their designs – KDX-3, im sure that if the Indian navy tendered for aegis type destroyers they would welcome the Korean Destroyer eXperimental no doubt.
No doubt the Koreans have a mature industry, and its amongst the best in the world. But thats not the point, the issue is whether they strike up a relationship with the Indian MOD, that can bypass the traditional relationship the MOD has with Russian and some European shipbuilders. So unless the Soko builders approach the IN, the MOD might persist with the view that they dont need to issue them a RFI etc.
Personally, it would have been smart of the Indian side to actually use such a deal to cut the Pak-SoKo commercial arms trade in its infancy. Recently the former signed a deal with SoKo for DPICM 155mm artillery shells and technology for local production. This would have been a good way to try and put a canker in the works or at least prevent more developments of this nature.
Nick_76Pakistanis use(d) almost endless list of various Mirage III versions:
The first batch delivered to Pakistan in 1967 contained three versions – 18x single-seat fighter Mirage IIIEP, 3x double-seat trainer Mirage IIIDP and 3x single-seat recce Mirage IIIRP. (PAF total 24 units)
Second batch from 1970 contained another two Mirage IIIDPs and twenty-eight Mirage 5PA single-seat attackers. In 1975 additional ten Mirage IIIRP aircraft were purchased. (PAF total 64 units)
The last new aircraft were acquired in 1979, two twinseaters designated as Mirage 5DPA2, 18x attackers Mirage-5PA2 and 12x Exocet-capable Mirage-5PA3. (PAF total 96 units)
And now comes the mess.. In 1990 Pakistanis purchased ex Australian birds, 32x single-seat fighter Mirage IIIO and 7x double-seat trainer Mirage IIIDO. Another 10x Mirage IIIO and one Mirage IIIDO airframes were bought as scrap for spares. (PAF total 146 units)
In 1996 Frenchies supplied 33 used Mirage 5F attackers plus 6 double-seat trainers designated as Mirage IIIDF. (PAF total 185 units)
In 2000, all Lebanese aircraft were bought, that counts 9x Mirage IIIEL plus one Mirage IIIDL. (PAF total 195 units)
In 2002, 12 ex-Spanish Mirage IIIEEs and one Mirage IIIDE airframes were bought for spares (all not flyworthy) (PAF total 208 units)
In 2004, all Lybian Mirage 5D/5ED/5DD were purchased. The estimated number is between 45-50 including some 5DD twinseaters, 5ED interceptors and a recce version. All others should be 5D attackers. (PAF total 258 units)
Upgrades:
ROSE-1 – All five Mirage IIIDPs, plus all 32 Australian singleseaters Mirage IIIO
ROSE-2 – 19 French ex-Mirage 5EFs
ROSE-3 – Remaining 14 ex-French Mirage 5EFs
Flex, you rock. That is arguably the most lucid and best post on PAF Mirages I have seen on the internet. (Hopefully all the data is correct too. 😀 )
Had no idea that the number of upgraded Mirages was so low. Seems like a lot of the 258 birds are being used as spares.
Any idea how many are in frontline service?
Nick_76Just a little comment, if you have quick look, between India and China’s border arguement, India holds 2 times more disputed land than China does, and do you see ordinary chinese members as sensitive as Indian counterparts?
I am not trying to get into any furthur arguments, but to many Indian members, give your self a bit more confidence, you are not worse off, India is a big country. Be cool, no point being so agitated all the time.
Vario, its not about territory, but strategic intent. Like it or not (I dont), India and the PRC will be at loggerheads for some time to come. Part of that reason is size, and location. And of course “near history”, namely 1962, and the continued antipathy of the PRCs political structure to India- we can argue about this, but I am merely relating what I have observed. Add the PRCs strategic support to Pakistan, a nation which India is basically in low-grade war, with and you have the present impasse.
India & PRC wont go to war, or saber rattle- they will trade and exchange handshakes and bureaucrats. But I doubt whether they will be allies.
Coming to cool members etc, Iwould say there are very few Chinese posters with your equanimity. The rest are too busy flaming (and getting flamed).
Nick_76The use of the word ‘ingorant’ was unnecessay and an obvious attempt at a flame.
Gee, coming from someone who typecasts Indians as harbouring irrational hatred of Chinese…:rolleyes:
Had you have read what I wrote without wanting to flame me you would have realised that I was actually talking about an irrational hatred (which is in fact frequently seen on this website) rather than an irrational distrust on defense matters.
Actually, I see much the reverse too from some Chinese posters. But unfortunately or fortunately, most folks here are serious enough to understand that the antics on one net forum hardly relate to reality.
There is no reason whatsoever why South Korean industry could not have been invited as they are perfectly capable of installing the systems of Indias choice on hull of South Korea design. Or are you ‘ignorant’ enough to believe that everything on the new ships will come from the same country?
If the South Korean industry strikes up a relationship with the Indian Defence Ministry they will receive a deal or be invited. Otherwise, it wont happen. South Korean firms made a beeline for India a decade and a half back, and are amongst the best rated ones in their category. If defence firms show the same business sense, there is no reason why they wouldnt be invited. Provided they had the capability and were able to demonstrate it to IN satisfaction.
Nick_761)I couldnt agree more, especially when one sees the progress china is making on its indigenous naval shipbuilding.
India will invest into shipbuilding only if it has a good ROI for the Govt of India. The new Defence Procurement Procedure, quite clearly lays out the fact that private shipyards will have to pick up the slack. The Govt ones have enough work as it is. Secondly, this state of affairs is because the GOI did not allocate enough funds during the 90’s to sustain shipbuilding, the chickens have but come home to roost. It has less to do with facilities at home and more to do with GOI fiscal pennypinching at the time.
2)There is no way that India would buy any defence materials from China, for some reason the Indians have an irrational hatred of the Chinese which does not seem to be reciprocated. The leaving out of South Korea is surprising though.
Dont be stupid. Official bonhomie and trade relations apart, China is arming India’s rival Pakistan, and is itself India’s strategic rival. Furthermore, China still contests Indian territory. In such a clime, it would be downright silly of India to depend upon China for any sort of military equipment. To twist this into “Indians have irrational hatred of China” is ludicrous. Besides which, online chinese fora on the net drip with contempt for India and Indians, but it would still be unwise to lump all Chinese into the same basket based upon what these hyper patriots on the net do.
Nick_76but is the construction of Akulas Completed? if completed are they have trials in russia?
Are they fitted with Klub or brahmos or will they be fitted in future.How about navy using Akula as platform for Sagarika SLCM/BM tests, Will Russians allow for that?
And a werid question , what will happen if Akulas are lost in sea due to some accident. as this is a lease agreement for 10 yrs.
The plan is to use the Akulas to get hands on experience over the next five six years by the time the first ATV arrives. They will also be used as testbeds for some of the equipment developed for the ATV. If the ATV project flounders, only then would the Akulas be purchased, but the Navy considers this very unlikely, considering the current status of the project (ie in its penultimate phase), hence the Akulas are only on lease.
Nick_76Last year there were specious reports that the first ATV would be launched in 2007?
This would seem to be total nonsense.
You have to be kidding. The timeline for the ATV is 2011-12. The credible reports state that the reactor design slated for the ATV had gone critical in 2004, and it was yet to be fitted out to the sub. And for crying out loud, dont quote Prasun Sengupta. Other critical components have been manufactured per other reports.
http://www.hindu.com/2005/11/25/stories/2005112502201400.htm
Nick_76what I mean is that it’s often easier to design your own new hull than to adapt an existing one.
Space is not the only requirement, weight is a lot more. You can do practically anything with it, but it has its limits. Putting Brahmos and Barak-II might cause additional weight, more stress on certain frames, maybe even a trim. Warships are generally designed to have some remaining stability and as far as I know most navy officers don’t even know how to calculate stability as their ships’ changing big weights are often just fuel and a helicopter and those are taken in account during design.
However a trim change will affect fuel consumption and speed. Just a few remarks.
So all together it’s easier to design a ship knowing certain specifications than to adapt an existing hull that was built for other specs.
Are you sure about that Italian FREMM? Maybe you’re talking about Horizon? France has a proposed AAW version of FREMM too, yet it’s doubtful that it will ever be realised.With this budget however they can design a new hull without trouble. Look at Zeven Provincien, she’s entirely new and I doubt India will come up with anything like a Smart-L-APAR mix. Of course if they are about to buy stuff from other countries they’ll be paying a lot more.
Perhaps a 3D CAR derivative and MFSTAR. 😉
The Indian side is plumping in some 150 Million dollars for the Barak-2 project. That signals that some of that is probably going for the MF-STAR, acc. to speculation on Indian Webboards. Considering that the Greenpine each cost 50 Million $ and came with TOT for an Indian variant, this speculation seems to have some basis.
Nick_76Given DRDO’s tour de force via the recent ABM tests, it seems that a lot of the stuff necessary for the Astra may have been achieved too. Work has been going on for quite some time now. The India of today, has substantial infrastructure for assisting the boffins. Am quite sure companies like Satyam, Wipro etc have been tapped as well. The launch customer for the Astra is the LCA; the Mirages, MiG-29s can “also carry it”.
Coming to the Mica vs the R-77, is the former really more advanced than the latter? I dont know. The Russians have a habit of upgrading their equipment till it finally meets modern standards and is available for serial production, tho’ with a lot of PR about how their product is ready from day1. I mean compare the Zhuk-M to the RDY, both seem fairly equivalent products.
Coming to AAMs dont forget price as well. Russian AAMs are economical for their price. You could probably buy 2-3 R-77s for a Mica…
Nick_76Not entirely and no. You’re really that naive, and you have not seen how Western sellers like Airbus and Boeing would serialized and “seal” critical parts of the aircraft so they won’t be tampered with.
Sonnyboy, I have met many sellers and seen how the business works. On the other hand, I doubt whether you have even met anyone from the “business” in the flesh, whether chinese, western or russian. Big talk on the internet doesnt impress me Crobato, nor does your juvenile nationalism which leads you to start spewing insults from the word go.
But then again, Pibu does work with Janes which reported this Irbis thing. So go correct him and Janes.
I dont need to correct him. I can disagree without acting the boor.
I just think you’re freaking naive. And yes money speak wonders, and you underestimate its power, GROW UP.
Coming from a dude who apparently has no day job, its hilarious.
Grow up Crobato. Please.
Nick_76🙂
Jai, can you log into your gallery and activate it. The one in your signature, aeroindia.fotopic.net
Nick_76The brahmos project has really helped India I believe…..to master quite a lot of technology.
Once you know how a thing works modifying it isnt tuff.
Without the IGMDP there would be no Brahmos.
The IGMDP has the Prithvi (success), Agni (success), Akash (ongoing), Nag (ongoing), Trishul (failed). The rest are all apart from the IGMDP. The Prithvi and Agni have been huge successes, illiterate media articles apart (just check the orders), and are critical to Indias nuke deterrent.
Nick_76STEPS TO PREVENT MIG-21 CRASHES
——————————————————————————–16:54 IST
RAJYA SABHAThe cause of a few MiG-21 aircraft accidents in the Indian Air Force (IAF) has been attributed to engine failure due to jamming of the Reciprocating Slide Valve (RSV) of the engine fuel system resulting from possible contamination of fuel.
The engine of MiG-21 aircraft, which is made of numerous small and intricate components, some times develop problems at varying stages of exploitation under different environmental conditions. Once an accident takes place, the investigators of the accidents have to study the remnants of the components of the system to try and establish the cause of the failure. In cases of fighter crashes, the components are destroyed due to the high impact speed and intense fire in the wreckage. Therefore, it is not always possible to pinpoint the cause of the engine failure. However, in a few MiG-21 aircraft accidents, the problem of jamming of RSV has already been identified by investigators. The remedial measures could not be instituted till the investigators identified the cause.
Several steps are taken by the IAF on a continuous basis to augment flight safety. In this direction, the RSV has been modified in consultation with the designers of the equipment. Besides the use of one – micron filters during refueling of aircraft and maintaining high level of fuel discipline at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) division and operating units have been instituted by the Indian Air Force. These measures have resulted in sharp reduction in the accident rate of the MiG-21 aircraft.
This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Datta Meghe in Rajya Sabha today.
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