Nick_76Is HAL allowed to modify these aircraft at all?
Extend the nose? increase the diameter etc?
They have been pretty much having their own way with them. The deal is that if they do come up with something that improves the performance etc, then BAe can incorporate it without paying any costs. But no massive structural redesign has taken place, bar indigenization, composite usage for some parts etc.
Nick_76greenday u forgot to mention about inducting this for the first time in pakistan
the best in the business
OMG, acc. to Yasser/ Greenday, that should automatically mean the Pak automotive industry is about to overtake Germany… 😀 😀
Nick_76Where are the ‘new’ Jags from? Remanufactured or ex French/ Royal Air Force?
37 newbuild ordered in all, 17 delivered, 20 being manufactured at HAL. 40 Jaguars (of the earliest Darin-I) batch being upgraded to the same standards as the new builds.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Specs/Jaguar.html
Some of the data in the above is outdated, the Smiths/ HAL OSAMC for instance has been replaced with this & almost all the avionics upgrades/ features are common across the Jaguar & MiG-27 upgrade
Nick_76Great, by not writing anything substatitated but just simply pouring down alot of crap you guys think you win arguements with phrases like
“I live near an IAF base and hear jets alot” hence our training must be good!?
Slinking away, as usual …a bit of bluster and bravura and then a tactical retreat, eh?
I give up, I have made my points.
Where, when? We are yet to see any point made by you? We see a lot of bombast, some braggadacio about “full bloodied EW” on PAF F-16s and similar juvenile nonsense which any child can write without getting into specifics- but we have seen next to no proof on your part about:
JF-17s with AMRAAMs
8 Chinese AWACs and the like.
Face it dude, you got hoisted on your own petard or petticoat or whatever. You make up stuff as you go along. :rolleyes:
If it will take PAF 10 years to operationalise our fleets that we have ordered, how long will it take the IAF to induct and operationalise all teh fancy stuff it MIGHT ORDER IN THE FUTURE!?
More “genious” (as Greenday would spell it!)..
It takes someone who already knows math to learn algebra, less time vs someone who knows little of math to begin with.
The PAF has not operated any BVR, has had little experience with operating in an AWACs environment etc- the IAF has had BVR for around two decades now; only goes to show who’ll be ramping up faster..whether it be advanced avionics or Satellite surveillance, the IAF is in a different league…it operates far more advanced types overall, has much more access to and has already inducted better sensors, EW gear etc. :p
What the IAF has already inducted in the past decade beggars Pakistans future acquisitions in most ways.
Its not even tasteful for most of us to bring it up. But nevertheless you insisted on this silly comparison.
Never you mind as to what happens when Uncle Sam decides that dealing with Pak needs some screws to be turned on, and uses the F-16s for leverage (as demonstrated previously- Pressler amendment anyone?) then Greenday would talk of UFOs from Mars coming to make the PAF invulnerable. :p
Dont prattle on about some mythical PAF advantage…seriously, its amusing but does your already tattered credibility no good.. :rolleyes:
Clowns! Having you guys reply to my posts with yoru fantasies just makes you look ignorant.
Looking in the mirror again? :rolleyes:
When your wetdreams of JF-17s with AMRAAMS and eight Chinese AWACS were laid bare, off you scampered, as was expected! When was the last time you even managed to back up any of your increasingly stupid claims, with any evidence whatsoever? :confused:
Once again clown, how many ARMs does the PAF operate? :p
Now I gotta go, lunch to catch.
Beef stew! :diablo:
later
I think lunch is the least of your worries. You need to get checked out for some hormonal imbalance or the like…seriously. Most of the stuff that you write is bizarre.. :p
Nick_76Here is more about the latest Nato demarche to Musharraf
Nato’s top brass accuse Pakistan over Taliban aid
By Ahmed Rashid in Kabul
(Filed: 06/10/2006)Commanders from five Nato countries whose troops have just fought the bloodiest battle with the Taliban in five years, are demanding their governments get tough with Pakistan over the support and sanctuary its security services provide to the Taliban.
Nato’s report on Operation Medusa, an intense battle that lasted from September 4-17 in the Panjwai district, demonstrates the extent of the Taliban’s military capability and states clearly that Pakistan’s Interservices Intelligence (ISI) is involved in supplying it.
President Pervez Musharraf
Commanders from Britain, the US, Denmark, Canada and Holland are frustrated that even after Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf met George W Bush and Tony Blair last week, Western leaders are declining to call Mr Musharraf’s bluff.
“It is time for an ‘either you are with us or against us’ delivered bluntly to Musharraf at the highest political level,” said one Nato commander.
After the September 11 attacks in 2001 America gave Mr Musharraf a similar ultimatum to co-operate against the Taliban, who were then harbouring Osama bin Laden.
“Our boys in southern Afghanistan are hurting because of what is coming out of Quetta,” he added.
What if the F-16s are now used for political reasons given the above? Surely, applying Greenday standards, the PAF would now collapse. :rolleyes:
Nick_76I never once mentioned the PAF has integrated AMRRAM with JF-17 yet. The fighter has not even entered service. I said it would be POSSIBLE to integrate AMRAAM with a Grifo radar should it be selected and if we were allowed.
More lurid claims.
It is also “possible” that the Norwegians could send their JSFs to Pakistan where aliens to land in Pakistan & threaten the world. What is the probability of such an event occurring? :rolleyes:
If IAF will be 50% more powerful (who on earth did you come up with such a % figure si beyond me), look at the leaps and bounds by wihch its nearest rival will progress.
PAF
BVR
In flight refuelling
Erieye
F-16s
JF-17s
J-10s
TPS-77 radars
JDAMSUnlike alot of the IAF equipment which has yet to be ordered all of teh above HAVE BEEN ORDERED and are being delivered.
MRCA – No order
LCA (just 20)
PAK/FA – Will it get off the ground?No tell me, who is going to be 50% more powerful in 4 years?
Mathematics is indeed not your strong point.
If your basis number is low, any sort of decent improvement in it translates to a large percentage. The larger AFs already field far more than you do & are more capable besides.
The PAF will well nigh take the better part of a decade to even operationalize all your fanciful claims- its the first time for it. Other AFs have been doing all that for far more time. :rolleyes:
Nick_76They had a cabinet meeting about 2 days ago, and aleady you have found out that everything is now hunk dorey?
Its amazing the amount of spin you guys put on almost every piece of news regarding the IAF.
Oh please- we discuss and move on. The problem is that anything about the IAF gets you worked up- the green eyed devil, as it were. See your juvenile insistence that now somehow the PAF will be equal in ability to a larger & more technologically adept air arm. It would be pathetic, but for your swagger and your insistence that a few freebies from the US would turn the tide.
Everything that is even “discussed” is regarded as a “done deal”.
Nonsense. There is constant debate on this thread over whats likely as compared to just being discussed. I myself have contradicted half a dozen posters on this score, and others have corrected me as well. :rolleyes:
Every negative report is lamblasted as misinformation.
Instead of logically arguing or even admitting yoru short comings, people put there head into the sand.
Lets rephrase this, shall we. Instead of swallowing Greendays lurid depictions of PAF superiority, the folks here ask him to back up his claims with facts and information.
JF-17s with AMRAAMs anyone?
8 AWACS from China anyone?
Fact is that you make up BS to argue whatever claim that you have fixated upon for the day…
If the IAF were to get a new radar tomorrow, you would claim that PAF is getting donated UFOs from Mars for SEAD work and this automatically gives PAF an edge…
Of course, when asked for proof, you will post some unrelated nonsense about PAC Kamra integrating Martin Baker seats on F-7P’s and say in your usual manner:
“I have provided evdence to Idnians theytre not beliebing me”
Your usual spelling mistakes and excited tone as well.. :rolleyes:
Even your ACM admits things are “worrying”, your force levels are predicted to come down to the PAFs for the first time in IAF history and your tech advantge has been negated in several areas.
IAF/MOD has been doing alot of talk, and to be honest they always do. A bit like some forum members.
Your ACM mentions 15 years before MRCAs are delivered.
What is so amusing is the fact that you are in your own world, where events take place in a vacuum…the IAF Chief is asking for corrective action now, to offset a future hypothetical, which is by no means certain…and his demands are getting great media play, which translate into better funding for whatever he wants….which is bad news for Pakistan…but only you would believe that its somehow good. What it translates to in reality, is before election time, getting several procurement decisions made asap..but keep thinking it is good!
In 15 years PAF and most air forces will be ordering F-16 replacements.
Its no big deal.
Other AF’s need not be brought in…lets see you put your money where your mouth is & tell us what the PAF will be doing…
3 Phalcons for the entire country. You do not even know how these will perfom yet some people are claiming another trhee will be ordered. Along with the GENIOUS poster you claimed you would not have to cover the Chinese border in event of war?
This is probably one of your most juvenile posts yet, and thats saying a lot. Nobody uses AWACs to “cover a total country” or for that matter a radar network. AWACs are for the TBA, ie tac. battle area. The rest of the area is split into Air Defence Zones, each with a central long range acquisition radar (THD series whose upgrade program began two years back, 7 in all) followed by concentric circles and overlapping zones of defence, each with multiple radars – ranging from AESA Greenpines to several other units. These being backed up by layered SAM defences, each with their own long range surveillance & acquisition radars for redundancy. But only YOU would think that the Phalcons need to cover the whole of India or China or whatever!
Why should anyone take your bizarre claims seriously? You demonstrate absolutely no knowledge of the comparative tactics, strengths & weaknesses of either side.
You resort to silly theatrics at the drop of a hat, and juggle figures as it suits you (the changing numbers of Indian AWACs aircraft on order vs Pakistans ever rising number as the modd takes you). All sorts of fanciful claims of the PAF being better off vis a vis the IAF etc- wheres the logic in any of your bizarre proclamations? :rolleyes:
Care to show even one ARM in PAF service? :rolleyes:
Even the IAF has indicated it is unhappy with LCA. There are litrally HUNDREDS of items of news to prove this. Yet some mebers persist in claiming it will form a big part of the fleet. It took HAL several years to persuade the IAF to order just 20.
The IAF is open with its likes and dislikes. In the past it has held Russia’s feet to the fire over MiG-21’s, 29’s and even MKIs till they incorporated exactly what they wanted. Why would they treat any local program any differently? India is not Pak where strict censorship on any kind of negative depiction of the armed forces exists.
Dont get me wrong.
IAF has made major strides in modernisation, but has some way to go, and certainly has not prevented PAF from catching up.
More wishy washy belief about hypotheticals…if the US indeed changes its policy as being debated inPart seven, & uses the F-16s for leverage, what then?
All across the net & elsewhere, Pakistanis are gritting their teeth over the severe restrictions on the F-16 deal, but are taking it in their stride (There is no other alternative etc), but only you would be jingoistic enough to believe that as a great success. Sure, if you keep the benchmark low. :rolleyes:
Meanwhile, provide proof for:
1. J-17s with AMRAAMs
2. 8 Chinese AWACS being ordered
Or ‘fess up and quit the silly theatrics.
Nick_76Fror Greenday, since he usually slinks away –
Stop prancing around and answer the questions:
A) Proof of JF-17s with AMRAAMS
b) Proof of Eight AWACS being ordered from China
Have you no shame man? No ounce of self respect to back up your statements, even? Is there anything more that needs to be said about your utter lack of common sense or credibility?
Nick_76Stop prancing around and answer the questions:
A) Proof of JF-17s with AMRAAMS
b) Proof of Eight AWACS being ordered from China
You are more & more becoming a standing joke with your wild eyed claims and rabid jingoism, with nothing to back it up.
Nick_76I could pick holes but I wont even bother. Alot of the stuff you mentioned has not been confirmed yet, and if I were to produce even HALF the articles showing problems and delays with many of the above it would take up most of this thread. “ouch” indeed….
Actually he’s mentioned all the programs being discussed @ the MOD level which are to be all completed by the next plan period which is from 2007 – 2012…
Whats the point listing equipment that even yoru ACM admits you may not get for another 10-15 years. What sort of fantsay world are you living in?
The irony of it all…
You do realise that you are still to provide any proof of AMRAAMs on JF-17s or “Eight AWACs” from China.
Talk about fantasy and living in la-la land..
BTW where are your “full bloodied EW F-16s” (sic.) & proof of the same? 😀
Your entire govenrment is meeting to discuss how in fact you are actually LOSING conventional superiority. You are claiming its increasing.
Who are we to belive, forum members or the head of Indias armed forces? 😉
What you fail to realise is that the reports hinge on a future hypothetical six years down the line, if corrective action were not undertaken now. By all accounts, that action has been started, re: MRCA purchase.
The IAF considers both the PLAAF and the PAF & is an offensive force which necessitates that its strike ability be massive. So it aims for a higher ability. But never mind, knock yourself out in happiness over the IAF making a money play and getting its demands met! 😀
Nick_76From BR
Defense News
Posted 10/05/06 16:12Indian Air Force Chief Reviews Service’s Modernization Plans
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHIThe Indian Air Force continues to pursue a number of modernization programs to help sharpen its combat edge, the service’s commander said Oct. 5.
Addressing the Air Force’s annual news conference here, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi reviewed a number of programs that are under way as part of the service’s mammoth modernization drive, including:
• Accelerated production of Su-30 MKI aircraft.
• Induction of 80 additional medium-lift multi-utility helicopters.
• Additional advanced light helicopters built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).
• 20 additional Jaguar aircraft from HAL.
• Induction of homegrown Light Combat Aircraft from HAL.
• Six new Il-78 midair refuelers.
In addition to these new aircraft, Tyagi said, the Air Force is pursuing upgrades of its MiG-27 combat planes, Jaguars, multirole aircraft such as the Mirage 2000-H and MiG-29, and its transport fleet, including Mi-17 helicopters, An- 32 and Il-76 aircraft.
A senior Indian Air Force planner said most of Tyagi’s announcements are part of the service’s so-called 11th plan, which will begin in 2007. All programs under the plan will be concluded by 2012, including finalization of the Medium-Range Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The Air Force soon will float a global tender for acquisition of 126 MMRCAs at the cost of $9 billion.
Tyagi noted that the Air Force will acquire long-range reach and close the sensor-to-kill loop with the deliveries, beginning in mid-2007, of three Airborne Early Warning & Control Systems (AWACS) aircraft from Israel. Once the AWACS are in service, he said, the Air Force will use satellite facilities to detect enemy targets that could be hit by its force multipliers. And with the use of AWACS, he said, the Air Force could carry out effective battle-damage assessment using satellites.
Tyagi also elaborated on the Air Forces’ proposal last year of an Aerospace Command that will essentially be an integrated command to be jointly used by the Army, Navy and Air Force. Most of its military space applications, however, will be used by the Air Force.
As for the induction of new missiles and air defense systems, Tyagi said, India will sign a contract to buy an unspecified number of Spyder low-level, quick-reaction missile systems from Israeli company Rafael.
The Air Force also has decided to carry out further trials of the modified Akash quick-reaction surface-to-air missile system, designed and built in India. Though the Akash system did not prove its mettle in earlier tests, Tyagi said that, based on Air Force requirements, India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation has made credible improvements to the missile. Beginning in February, new trials of the Akash will be carried out, and eventually it will be inducted into the Air Force’s arsenal.
The Air Force also is firming up plans to acquire new-generation, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems to protect vital assets across the country.
Nick_76More details..
Pakistani F-16s will upset power balance: IAF chief
Indo-Asian News Service
New Delhi, October 5, 2006
Pakistan’s acquisition of additional F-16 combat jets is “an area of concern” as this would upset the balance of power in south Asia, the head of the Indian Air Force (IAF) said on Thursday.
Addressing a press conference in New Delhi ahead of the 74th IAF Day on Sunday, Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi spoke on a wide range of issues including the acquisition of additional aircraft, missiles and anti-missile systems, the creation of an Aerospace Command, and a controversy on whether or not the IAF should celebrate its platinum jubilee from October 8.
Speaking about the US decision to sell additional 36 F-16s to Pakistan and to upgrade its existing fleet of 32, Tyagi, who is known for calling a spade a spade, described this as “an area of concern”.
“If the balance of power in the region changes then this has to be taken into account but I would not call it a worrisome development as some (in the media) are saying,” he said.
“We keep a close watch on what is happening around us and alter our doctrines accordingly,” Tyagi added.
His statement came a day after he attended a high-level meeting convened by Cabinet Secretary BK Chaturvedi to consider Pakistan’s growing military strength and India’s response to this. It was noted at the meeting that the IAF’s combat strength had come down to 34 against a sanctioned level of 39 due to the delay in floating tenders for 126 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA).
Responding to a question, Tyagi maintained that changes in India’s defence procurement policy in 2005 and 2006 had caused a two-year delay but promised, “we are now pretty close to the baby being delivered”.
His suggestion to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee that the process be fast-tracked has been shot down, but the air chief refused to comment on this, saying his communications on the issue were confidential.
Simultaneously, Tyagi painted a rosy picture of the IAF’s planned acquisitions during 2007.
“We will be inducting the Hawk (advanced jet trainer) and the AWACS (airborne warning and control system). This is a very complex machine involving new techniques and new concepts.
“Then, there is the accelerated production of the SU-30 (frontline fighter that is manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited—HAL—under Russian license) which means we can induct it at a much faster rate.”
‘We also will be getting six midair refuellers, 20 Jaguar (deep penetration strike aircraft) from HAL as also 20 LCAs (home-grown light combat aircraft). We also hope to get 80 medium-lift helicopters and more ALHs (indigenous advanced light helicopters).”
“This apart, we will be upgrading our Jaguar, Mig-27, MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 (fighters), as also the MI-17 (helicopters) and An-32 (medium-left transports),” he added.
Turning to missiles, Tyagi admitted that delays in the indigenously developed Akash surface-to-air air defence system had ‘upset’ plans to replace this with the ageing Russian Pechora rockets.
“The Pechora has seen better days. As an interim, we have zeroed in on the quick-reaction OSA missile that is now awaiting the CCS (cabinet committee on security) clearance. We should be able to sign the contract in a month or two,” the air chief said.
“The other good news is that Akash finally looks like taking off. User trials should begin early next year and if they are successful, we should be able to induct the missile in about two years,” Tyagi added.[/B]
Answering a question on the creation of an Aerospace Command, a move he has long advocated, he maintained that in the technology-driven world of the future, the Indian armed forces would have to increasingly rely on satellites to “detect the enemy, hit the enemy and conduct battle damage assessment after the hit”.
“We are looking 20 years ahead. We have started thinking about not only creating assets in space but of protecting these assets from soft and hard kills. Ideally, these assets would have to function under a joint services command, even though the air force would be making maximum use of space,” he said.
As to whether or not the IAF should celebrate its platinum jubilee from Oct 8, Tyagi said in a lighter vein that this had generated much heat.
“There were many views. Some said platinum jubilee meant different things to the British and the Americans. So I said that since Bollywood has the 75-week benchmark to judge a hit film, 75 years it will be for us and that was the end of the issue,” Tyagi said amidst much mirth.
Nick_76Its not just experience in maintaining the MiG-29s but investment, they are actually turning out entire lines of spares.
Anyways, coming to modernisation-
Currently, the IAF has 39 MKIs + 18 Su-30 K’s (which will be replaced with new build MKIs)
Its going to be adding approx a sq. of MKIs a year @ 14 aircraft (you can bulk up the numbers to the standard 18-22 over time)
17 new build Two seater Jaguars are on order (this coupled with the news about the IAF seeking ~ 20 Stand off Jammers) shows that these are for SEAD. These are top of the line strike aircraft, with full PGM, Night attack capability and Litening capable. These will most likely be grouped into a dedicated unit.
40 Jaguars & 40 MiG-27s are currently being upgraded to the same standards. These will basically boost all five Jaguar squadrons by providing them a core of 8 aircraft/ Squadron which can act as formation leaders for PGM strikes/ designation/ dedicated EW aircraft (the Jaguars are already PGM capable, and the 1553 Databus makes new weapon integration possible)
The MiG-27s will similarly provide night attack capability and have been demonstrated to use buddy lasing from a UAV for LGB strikes.
Apart from that, the Bison upgrade should be complete by this year end, with round ~ 120 Bisons with R-73E/R-77 AAMs, a modern countermeasures & EW system, and significant PGM ability with KAB-250/500, KH-25 series ARMs for SEAD work. Another year or two, and all the maint. & servicing facilities should come online for an average uptime of around 80% from the current 60% level.
Apart from the above the IAF has Three squadrons each of Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s both of which are fairly modern for the threats it faces. The latter have updated N019 radars & were getting the new MKI series Tarang RWR as well. The Mirages have Super 530 D BVR capability & have seen periodic upgrade over the years, having been at the front of the IAF’s PGM and EW capability.
In IAF exercises, Su-30k’s, MKIs, Jaguars, MiG-27s have all been seen with Elta 8222’s, whereas the Mirages have been seen with Remora pods.
All the aircraft mentioned above are also IFR capable, with 6 IFRs already in IAF service.
All in all, the IAF has a fairly modern “core” – and this is excluding the 3 Jaguar squadrons of DARIN-II vintage which have decent avionics as it is, the 4 Squadrons of MiG-27s which can be used for tac strike even without upgrade, and the remaining squadrons of MiG-23BNs and 21 M/MF’s- the latter of which are on the way out.
Apart from this, its also ordered 7 New CAR’s (180 km range) from BEL/DRDO, numbers of Indra-2 gapfillers, Master T AESA from Thales, is currently evaluating medium power radars for a total 18 to be manufactured @ BEL, theres another 39 radars being developed for low level applications..a datalink project was underway (the Ks/ MKIs already have a datalink), and the IACCS should be implemented within a couple of years, its currently underway.
Also, the IAF currently has a sq. of UAVs (Searcher -IIs), plus Herons, and operates dedicated ELINT Boeing 737s with local gear, and has ordered 18 Batteries of Spyders with 18 radars (100km range), and ~ 15km missiles (Python-V/ Derby).
In other words, the IAF modernisation is not going badly at all.
Nick_76:rolleyes:
As we know, that issue was solved and PAF are getting full bloodied EW, unfortunately RAF seemed to solve the issue of Indian hype over its air force.
😀 😀
[Must not laugh out loud]
Whats more, this info will be in the public domain very soon, you wont have anywhere to hide then! :dev2:
Sure, & the cow will jump over the moon…& we will see AMRAAMs on JF-17’s ( 😀 ) and 8 Chinese AWACs ordered ( 😀 )
Anything else, or are you done for the day? :p
Nick_76yeah, there is some inside info, but you may not like it! :diablo:
You are better off inside-info’ing away about DRFM & F-16s, spend your energy there! :p 😀
Sign In
