MFowlerThe saga of The Magic Scrap, which TIGAR’s Ric Gillespie insists is part of Amelia Earhart’s aircraft, keeps getting “thinner,” so to speak. See the comprehensive update here: http://gardnerghost.blogspot.com/2020/03/is-2-2-v-1-piece-of-sydney-island-wreck.html
The bottom line is, at this point, NO ONE can positively assert the thickness of The Magic Scrap, with the exception of the Lehigh Testing Laboratorties report, since they are the only “experts” who have measured the thickness under controlled scientific conditions. The National Transportation Safety Board analysis of The Magic Scrap isn’t clear about whether it measured the thickness or just accepted TIGHAR’s measurement. What I find the most interesting about John Kada’s update linked above is where he demonstrates again, using Gillespie’s own words, how dismissive Gillespie is with anyone who disagrees with him:
“Forum Member: Alas I have no micrometer at my disposal at the moment nor access to the piece and am therefore dependent upon the written reports of others in this regard. Could you please direct me to a source(s) that describes and documents any of the many gauge measurements that were made (other than the NTSB report already mentioned), preferably one that includes a description of the tolerance levels involved. Thank you.
Gillespie: Okay. Here’s a written report especially for you. I have a micrometer and I have access to the piece and I have measured it numerous times. It’s .032″. You can choose not to believe me and wait for the LTL report which will include much more detail.”
Except … the Lehigh Testing Laboratorties report clearly states the thickness is 0.030 inches.
Numbers matter. At least, they do when you’re trying to be “scientific.” It will be interesting to see what, if anything, TIGHAR has to say about this latest blow to its claim that it has solved the Earhart mystery.
Wellington285, to clarify – The Magic Scrap was found amidst coconut fronds and other storm debris next to the former colonial “cooperative store” on the west end of the island, in the village area. The former US Coast Guard LORAN station (not radar) was on the far eastern tip of the island.
MFowlerYet another of the tragedies of the Key Aero forum re-do is that any posts that have tabular materials or something cut and pasted from a spreadsheet have had those posts turned into gibberish. Which is something I doubt will ever be fixed, and which is something that could have been predicted and easily avoided by Key Aero.
MFowlerRic Gillespie at TIGHAR continues to be roundly dismissive of anything that might put his piece of aircraft aluminum on anything other than Earhart’s aircraft. Others are choosing to be more open towards finding the solution, regardless of where the actual facts lead. For the latest, see Update No. 4 here: http://gardnerghost.blogspot.com/ .
As John Kada writes in his update, “The right thing for TIGHAR to do, given the evidence Tom Palshaw has produced, is gather evidence that might shed further light on the Tom’s conclusion that 2-2-V-1 is a piece of wreckage scavenged from the Sydney C-47. To misrepresent a piece of the Sydney C-47 wreck site as a piece of Amelia Earhart’s Lockheed Electra would be a disservice to those who died in the Sydney C-47 crash and to the crew of the Electra. Surely TIGHAR would want no part of such an abomination.”
Surely TIGHAR would want to follow to facts, wherever they might lead … right???
MFowlerTypical of TIGHAR’s “research” process, interest in The Scrap seems to have died down to nothing. No posts on it since Jan. 26, with Gillespie remaining roundly dismissive of anything that might disqualify it as being from Earhart’s aircraft.
Now he has engrossed his forum in reconstructing a timeline of Earhart’s last few years, with a view towards incorporating it into the book he may – a some point in the distant and undefined future – get around to writing. The book he has already collected probably thousands of dollars from TIGHAR members to write.
MFowler“By: trumper – 8th January 2020 at 18:20
I wonder if khalem.chapman is still with the forum ? “
*que the scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail”
“I’m not dead yet.”
“Here, he says he’s not dead yet!”
“Oh, he’ll be stone cold dead in just a minute.”
“But I don’t want to get on the cart …”
“Oh, don’t be such a baby!”
MFowlerThe doubts about the Magic Scrap keep growing, at least among the thinking men. Here’s a useful update on Plashaw’s research: https://gardnerghost.blogspot.com/2020/01/is-2-2-v-1-part-of-sydney-island-wreck.html
Take note of the pictures. As John Kada, the author of the piece, says, “TIGHAR has stated that 2-2-V-1 fits within the perimeter of the Miami Patch but as far as I know it has never published a photo demonstrating this to be the case.”
Still, Gillespie might be able to spin this out into a funding plea for one … more … analysis …
MFowlerTIGHAR executive director Ric Gillespie said in 2014, “TIGHAR a squeaky-clean 501 c3 public charity.” Which would mean, among other things, that it filed its federally-required tax forms on time. The last one TIGHAR filed was for the 2016-2017 tax year, with a note at the top, “Extended to May 15, 2018.”
We must be on TIGHARtime, because according to my calendar, it is Jan. 2, 2020.
MFowlerYes, Wellington285 , the font issue is another one that TIGHAR has consistently brushed aside or minimized if it thought it would diminish The Scrap’s value as an Earhart artifact. If fact, Gillespie’s attitude seems to be that it is up to others to prove the visible Alclad letters on the piece of metal AREN’T from the 1930s, not his job to prove that they ARE. Which turns the “scientific principle” TIGHAR holds so dear on its head.
What I find more than a little odd is TIGHAR’s reluctance to go straight to the source – the Alcoa archives. Which are in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Quite a lot of them, including boxes and boxes with photos of All Things Aluminum that Alcoa Ever Made. Just about 270 miles due west of TIGHAR’s office in Oxford, PA. You would think, at his $83,000-plus salary, Gillespie could find a day or two to go over there and plow through them.
MFowlerCanukman, you’re not thinking like TIGHAR, to wit: “Recognizing the Lightning’s historical significance as the oldest surviving Eighth Air Force combat veteran, and its potential as an object of study in corrosion research, TIGHAR has made a commitment to champion the aircraft’s recovery and preservation. and “The aircraft, largely intact and remarkably free of corrosion, is one of the most significant WWII-related archaeological discoveries in recent history.”
However … 1) Anyone who has seen photos of this aircraft is quick to realize that it is more than a little corroded, no surprise since it’s been exposed to salt water for decades, and 2) Who, besides TIGHAR, thinks that it’s any more or less significant than any other WWII aircraft wreck?
But there’s still time to get YOUR certificate and make YOUR donation to this invaluable project! Send a check to TIGHAR today!
MFowlerTIGHAR continues trying to fit its scrap of aluminum to Earhart’s aircraft, although now Ric Gillespie is, curiously, starting to walk back some of his earlier assertions while doubling down on others.
With regards to the chemical makeup of The Scrap, in this forum discussion https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,2074.msg43491.html#msg43491 he says, “The alloy percentages in the 1943 B-17 for the elements specified by ALCOA are most similar to one of the samples from a 1935 Electra.
Clearly, no conclusion about the age of 2-2-V-1 can be drawn from the available data. “
That’s not the whole story, and TIGHAR’s own analysis of The Scrap shows it. Gillespie is correct in that the main elements in Alclad are basically the same, whether it’s 1930s or WWII manufacture. ALL Alclad had to have copper, manganese and magnesium in them, according to the 1939 Federal Standard and the 1941 Alcoa standard No dispute there. Where Gillespie goes astray is by saying that the main element percentages for The Scrap are similar enough to WWII Alclad that no conclusions can be drawn.
TIGHAR’s own report from 2015 ( https://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Archives/Research/Bulletins/75_Findings2-2-V-1/75_Report_of_Findings_2-2-V-1.html )notes that analysis of the TRACE elements, which Gillespie discounts, tell a different story, and “a careful examination of the data reveals at least two markers that appear to potentially be time dependent.”
The analysis looked at chromium, nickel and zinc as “marker” elements whose percentages seemed to differ over time, “While the zinc difference may be a toss-up, the chromium content appears to be a strong marker and would thus appear to show 2-2- V-1 to resemble the alloys from the later dates. Nickel may also be a potentially important marker as it would appear to follow this same trend. Of course this very limited data base is by no means conclusive, but neither is it supportive of the patch being from the earlier era as the trend appears to be consistent and predictable.”
Seems like an apples and oranges kind of thing. Metallurgy doesn’t lie. The Patch is more consistent with WWII aluminum than with the 1930s aluminum – from Electra crash sites – that TIGHAR submitted for analysis.
Gillespie is also admitting that something he was told more than two years ago may be valid, that The Scrap is from a C-47 https://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,2074.msg43495.html#msg43495 . “The rivet pattern on the wing at the New England Air Museum (NEAM) is closer to the pattern on 2-2-V-1 than we originally thought, but it’s not a perfect match” seems to be quite a turnaround from his earlier, dismissive “not even close.” TIGHAR has had the information from the New England Air Museum volunteer (see original post above) since July 2017.
Maybe The Scrap is from the C-47A that crashed on Sydney Island during WWII. Maybe it’s from any of the more than two dozen types of US aircraft TIGHAR hasn’t definitively excluded as being potential sources. The only thing for sure is that it’s metallic makeup is saying 1940s, loud and clear.
MFowlerThis is more an oddity than a complaint, but … when I’m reading a forum thread on my computer, and use the scroll bar on the right hand side of the screen to move quickly up to the top of a page, a “flash” of a red bar briefly appears under the gaudy yellow menu bar at the top of the page.
Couple that with the magic bouncing Search box, and its visually unappealing, and a little disconcerting.
MFowlerRest assured, DH82EH , Gillespie is not about to let his Magic Scrap of aluminum go quietly into the night …
I’m sure it’s going to have a prominent place in the soon-to-be-released “How TIGHAR Found Amelia” film, coming to a social media account near you!
MFowlerThe bouncing yellow bar and search box at the top … yeowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, my eyes.
MFowlerAh… should have figured that out.
I’m more puzzled why TIGHAR is continuing to try and collect money for something that a government entity has decided it has sole authority over.
MFowlerI agree about the Edit button. I finally found the teensy weensy little blue thingy in the lower right corner of one of my ORIGINAL posts. It needs to be in a prominent place. That little blue thingy would be impossible to see/use on a smart phone, which I assume is Key’s intended targeted device for this redesign.
Still no way to edit follow-up posts.
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