JackonickoCould this thread get any lower?
First we have the usual Brit-hating Frenchmen displaying their customary ‘chip on the shoulder’ inferiority complexes, and now we have the whiff of anti-semitism.
:rolleyes:
The SFO enquiry was triggered by pressure from mischief-making US sources, and was then sustained by anti-Arms Trade, anti-BAE groups. It soon became clear that there is no evidence of any wrongdoing by BAE, and Britain’s top law officer decided that to press ahead with this mind-blowingly expensive enquiry would be a pointless waste of public money.
About time too.
I can see why some French folk would be upset at Rafale’s chances in Saudi Arabia being snuffed out, but the Rafale was never a good fit to meet Saudi Arabia’s requirements. In any case, Rafale will doubtless win orders elsewhere – and perhaps the recent efforts in Libya (where the US and the rest of Europe may be less willing to compete) might bear fruit. But most decent Frenchmen would be sporting enough to acknowledge that Typhoon won on merit in this campaign, and would not stoop to supporting unproven and unworthy allegations of corruption to sour an honest win, nor would they be quite to hypocritical as to criticise BAE for unproven allegations of the kind of corruption that other companies have been caught engaging in, red-handed.
JackonickoThe giving and receiving of gifts is entirely routine and honourable when doing business in the Middle East – it’s part of the culture, and should not be judged according to European standards.
Obviously, it goes without saying that there is more need for care to avoid bribery and corruption, and BAE have always tried to do that. To accuse them of acting in a corrupt fashion “because everyone else does” is inaccurate and unfair.
This is an enquiry that was triggered by US pressure, and sustained by press coverage by newspapers who have always had a strongly anti-Arms Industry and anti-BAE agenda.
And there is no indication (let alone any evidence) that there has been any wrongdoing by BAE – the Attorney General explained on BBC 5 Live that quite apart from national interest and security considerations, there was “very little evidence to suggest any wrongdoing on the part of BAE.”
If the Attorney General says that, it’s clear that there was certainly not enough evidence to consider a court case and in those circumstances, halting the enquiry was the right decision.
And all the online whingeing by Brit-hating Frenchmen, in a pathetic attempt to salve their inferiority complexes is both rather sad and also utterly immoral, and reflects badly on France’s traditions of fairness and fair play.
If I were French, I’d be embarrassed to admit it, thanks to the gutter-level ramblings of folk like Foofoone.
JackonickoOn another forum, a lawyer who has been involved in this said:
“I’ve been advising in this (not on the SFO side) for some time and, if I was to be completely mercenary (yes, I know all lawyers are assumed to be), I’d be disappointed the investigation has been terminated.
In fact, I think it was the correct decision.
The investigation has been going on for about 2 years and I estimate it would be about a further 18 month/2 years before the SFO would have been in a position to decide:
(1) whether there was any evidence of illegal payments,
(2) if so, whether there was sufficient evidence to prosecute anyone,
(3) if so, whether a prosecution was likely to be successful, and
(4) if so, whether it was in the public interest to bring a prosecution.
Bear in mind that it wasn’t until 2001 that UK corruption law was extended to include bribing overseas officials. Whatever did or didn’t happen before 2001 could not be an offence under a law which didn’t exist at the time.
This is only a hunch, but I think it unlikely there would have been sufficient (even if any) evidence to mount a prosecution.
Even if there was, I have very serious doubts whether it would be in the public interest to rake up old matters.
Given that there was no suggestion of personal gain, but allegedly things happened to obtain contracts for the benefit of this country, I suspect a jury would have been very reluctant to convict – whatever the evidence turned out to be.”
JackonickoDon’t get too excited, we’ve only signed up for the next phase.
Still plenty of time to can the entire thing!
mercurynews.com says:
“Britain tentatively plans to buy 150 F-35s – a version that makes short take-offs and vertical landings – for use on aircraft carriers, but Drayson said Tuesday’s agreement didn’t obligate Britain to a specific purchase. He also said his government still has a “Plan B” to buy other planes – such as the Euro fighter Typhoons or France’s Rafale jets – if the joint strike fighter program falls seriously off track.
“What we’re not doing at this stage is committing to numbers of aircraft, prices of aircraft, because that will become clear in approximately two years’ time once we’ve gone further down the development track,” Drayson said.
Congress removed one of Britain’s objections by rejecting the Pentagon’s recommendation to cancel an alternate F-35 engine being developed by Britain-based Rolls Royce. But the debate over whether to fund the back-up engine could resurface in the next session of Congress.”
JackonickoJust saving Fonk/Foofoone the trouble of replying…….:dev2:
JackonickoPerhaps the fact that these ‘trade secrets’ are being given to a nation whose Intellectual Property runs right through the aircraft has something to do with it?
Perhaps because all that the UK needs is sufficient software access to be able to autonomously operate, support, sustain, and upgrade the aircraft (as any sovereign nation would expect to do) and integrate its own weapons and equipment on the aircraft. This is hardly unreasonable.
(JBR: If we need JSF at all, we need STOVL. F-35C is far from being a good choice for the UK).
JackonickoFirst, the planned UK JSF buy is far too small to justify a split purchase of two quite different versions.
Moreover, if STOVL JSF is not required for the carriers, STOVL JSF is not required at all. The days of operating from Supermarket car parks in Germany are gone forever, and while operating from austere and relatively short strips is useful, what you need is deployability, supportability and a minimum logistics footprint, and not vertical landing capability.
I’d even go as far as to say that if STOVL JSF is not required for the carriers, JSF is not required at all, since if we can accept STOBAR or CTOL, there are other options (Super Hornet, Rafale, Typhoon N, etc.).
The cynic within me would note that neither Lord Drayson nor anyone else has ever publicly defined exactly what is meant by operational sovereignty, nor what is required in order to achieve it, either industrially or from the point of view of the customer. The phrase “Unbroken chain of command of UK citizens” seems to be making its first appearance – and there is no mention of previous criteria for Operational Sovereignty (the ability to “operate, support, sustain and integrate”).
That makes it hard to assess whether the noble Lord has caved in, or whether he has achieved a breakthrough, or whether we’re still negotiating.
I wonder whether he’s had any reassurance on the likely price tag?
Jackonicko“RobL you are big mouthed poodle boy of Bush ape monkey and you have NO asnwer to that that would give me any satisfaction. You’re totally out of your socket. You are living in the cave age. You cant distinguish between your mum ironing plank and the short plank of wood zat I am as thick as. You know too litle your subject to make an impression on ME or any of us for that matter.
You absolutly have no knolidge of aerospacial, only a limited comprehension of what you are bubling about and a taste for escapism manure of the sort pedalled by Taranis fan club superioricist gurus. You push desinformation and there are TONS of it. You GOT ZILTH but your usual mythological manure, and you are not fit to wipe my beeg Franche harsse, from which I am educatifying you.
You’re talking to a guy who was a conscript armourer fitting 7,900 kg bombs (16,000-lb bombs!) to Mirage IIIEs at a time you weren’t even born yet, so don’t you come up with pseudo-specialist bulls because though I didn’t even make corporal I can spot spin,twist and ignorance on knowledge and experience only. Did I tell you I was at BA102 cleaning toilets before when you were not even before yet born before then?
Go back to primary BOY you’re not good enough to make the slightest impression on ME, i KNOW far better than you.
When i WANT to learn about anything, i go to the library and look in Jane’s, as i knw some libraries for as long as you have been on this hearth.
You want to know about it? Simple. The Spad XIII is superior to your so-called Typhoon. Any Franche schoolgirl can make better UAV from toilet paper than so-called BAE can. Dassault are Number ONE in the EUs. You should learn to discernate between you silent wishes and reality. Franche is always best, I am always RIGHT, YOU are WRONG. And I’m laughing LOUD. If you don’t like the fact too bad, try suicide, you should have been born French, and a fat, boorish, stupid and ignorant peasant.
Zen you would kno that ze Neuron is superiomongouser than ze Taranis becos it is Franche. Franche is always best.
Get a life, schoolboy. You are DISMISSED.
If you want ot be of any sort of usefuness you can tell me when the library closes……?” :diablo:
JackonickoEthiopian
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_179.shtml
Egyptian
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0720569/L/
But the Indian ones looked nicest!
vayu-sena.tripod.com/ pix/mig23bn3.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/…php?photo=3245
JackonickoEthiopian
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_179.shtml
Egyptian
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0720569/L/
But the Indian ones looked nicest!
vayu-sena.tripod.com/ pix/mig23bn3.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showfull.php?photo=3245
JackonickoI believe that the 9.5 tonne weight was a target weight for a specific version that dates from the various lower cost Eurofighter Lite proposals made when the Germans were about to bale, along with the single-engined, canardless and other low cost proposals.
JackonickoMerlock,
Wrong, I’m afraid. An A-G capability was always integral, and there was no weight increase. Sorry.
JackonickoDrayson is the first MinDP who has pursued quite such an aggressively adversarial approach in getting value for money for the taxpayer and the service customer.
He’s certainly proved himself to be willing to play hardball, and I suspect that the A-G capability would have happened even more quickly had he been at the helm.
JackonickoIt’s a disgrace. The French and the Americans would never stoop to such trickery to gain orders, surely?
JackonickoThere are clearly two configurations being described as ‘Senior Peg’.
I’d say that the configuration posted by SOC (and printed in the recent Specialty Press F-117 book) has more credibility than the older ‘V’ tail version, and certainly appears to match the new ‘sighting’.
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