sorry i ment forgive me if im wrong but isnt the typhoon not going to have more A2G weapons than the rafale

The question is when and who will pay for the integration of those weapons.

Right now, the progress seems very slow and when the F-35 will enter into service it could be even slower.

Paveway IV is planned to be introduced into operational service early next year. Actually they were dropped during tests in 2009, although dummy IVs. From IPA 1 if I remember correctly. Storm Shadow and Taurus are more than likely to enter service with the Typhoon along with the likes of Brimstone. SDBs have been mentioned in various articles as well has an anti-radar A/G version of Meteor and a number of anti-ship missiles.

Theres likely to be other new types of munitions introduced over time, 20, 25 years ago, I’m sure the Tonka never thought it’d operate Storm Shadow & Brimstone.

I think The real problem is not how many defferent weapons will eventually be integrated but rather how well they will be integrated and when.

As stated many times, the typhoon main A2G issue is that it must choose bettwen weapons and fuel but can’t have both (only 3 weat points, and 4 fuselage points restricted to BVRAAM).
Knowing that, your comparison with the F-15E is quite good for it shows that the typhoon could only improve this flaw with large CFT (a la F-15E) and a hudge center line tank (at least 2000L).

Besides the fuel issue there are the separation concerns which will certainly be overcome but might have been underestimated at first glance.

Dropping LGB in straight line is the minimum acceptable today.

Because, you have to realize that the Rafale is operationally dropping salvo of 6 AASM in less than 3 sec with off boresight/bank angles of 90° with 3x2000L tanks under its wings. That it is cleared for exocet, scalp and ASMP-A shot at very low altitude in full automated, all weather terrain following mode. Not to mention high/low altitude multi-spectrum live recce already operational, a new generation LDP already funded, GMT capability next year with laser AASM… I mean, the rafale could even have the british brimstone integrated before the typhoon !

And it can also do all this (and it is actually doing it as I’m writing) from an aircraft carrier ! Not next year, not in 5 or 10 years but RIGHT NOW

That tells you how huge the gap between the 2 planes is, when it comes to A2G capabilities.

Honnestly, I do hope for the typhoon that India will take a loooong time to make its choice, because right now, it’s a no brainer if your need is for a multirole platform.

Be careful about moaning about fan boys looking around this forum lately i have come across many of your post, and you seem to be of the opinion that the rafale has no faults and it is by far the best thing in the world. perhaps you may benefit from taking a step back and consider the facts,( and by facts i don’t mean French magazines stating that the rafale is better, or theory’s that one done better in a competition 4 years ago, or that there was exercise and the rafale won 20-1 ) you will realise that both planes have their strengths and weaknesses. And people are stating that the rafales radar is smaller because it is visibly obvious to anybody looking though non bias eyes that the nose of the rafale is considerably smaller than Eurofighter

Well, as far as BVR engagements are concerned, BAE/EADS Powerpoint slides, and the bigger nose argument are even weaker “facts” to prove any superiority of the Eurofighter.

The fact is, that since 2009, there seems to be a clear trend showing that the Rafale is more than a match for the typhoon in A2A (both in CAC and BVR).
Now it is up to the Typhoon riders to demonstate what their plane is capable of against the Rafale.

Anyway, the IAF Su-30mki pilots had the opportunity to fight against both the typhoon and the rafale, so they sure have a good idea of what their current A2A capabilities are.

Awaiting the UAE
DSI special edition , August 2010

As you can see: neither radar or EW on Rafale was capable of competing with F-16.
Put another way: How’s your 15 year ole computer doin’ these days ?
still bleeding edge ?

On 1+ ton agile missiles, refer to Newtons 2nd law of motion

You are wrong.

The UAE are comparing Spectra with the ICMS mkIII installed on their Mirage 2000-9 which, inded, has some exclusive functions that the french version of spectra does not have because the French Air Force has dedicated planes for that.

As with the Mirage 2000 ECM suite, they want their own all-in-one spectra. Nothing new.

Also i think that article is pretty clear anyway!! The Rafale would be dead before it got to a WVR fight!!

That’s what BAE wanted us to believe until actual exercices took place. Now we now, that it was pure BS and that Rafale is, in fact, more than a match for any Typhoon both in BVR and WVR.

In 4 years of service the typhoon never managed to prove any significant A2A superiority over the Rafale despite behing flew by pilots training for A2A missions only while Rafale Pilots trained mainly for A2G missions (due to Afghanistan and nuclear deterence duties).

It is not that the Typhoon is not as good as expected in A2A, it is because the Rafale was vastly underestimated (on purpose ?) by its competitors.

But at the same time you have to wonder why the people who have the facts (the country’s dassult have tried to sell it to) have yet to buy a single specimen? what is it that puts them off so much?

Better ask yourself why the Rafale have always been ranked above the Typhoon when both aircrafts were evaluated on a technical basis only.

If we listen to the last MMRCA rumors, the Rafale is – again – ranked obove the Typhoon after the IAF trials.

@eagle1, cheers for the link, but as redreidy pointed out, French publication, no actual quotes, so I’ll take it with a pinch of salt, too. Even if it was official, I’d like to know the ROE, I doubt it’d be such a one-sided result without them.

Oi, we’ve got to give you French a rough idea of what its like to shoot something down! 😛 😉

Nice of you, but the RAF tornado F3 were already doing that job for our Mirage 2000 C for 25 years.
Eventually, nothing has really changed with the Typhoon… :diablo:

Having spent time maintaining Tornados (whats your area of mechanical knowledge?….. research, perchance?), the faults you listed are the things which generally don’t go wrong.

The sweep wings………… non complex – the bolts are as big as your hand and don’t fail (HYDRAULIC)

The wing pylons………….. never heard of one failing, as it is a purely mechanical rotation system

the refueling prob (e) …… the same idea as the Mirage and (I assume) Rafale – some do fail, but I’ll comment more in a minute (HYDRAULIC)

the 2 radars ……….. 2? I’m an F3 man, and I will concede this point.

the 2 engine reversers ……… (rare mechanical failure) (HYDRAULIC)

the air intakes……… never fail unless you mean the ramps (HYDRAULIC)

the airbrakes……… (HYDRAULIC)

2 guns…….. and your point is that guns jam?…. yeah and bombs hang on their rails. No points.

Most of the issues are Hydraulic – any hydraulic system can and will fail at regular intervals. Torndo has 2 independant systems AND mechanical reversion on the primary flight controls. A complex, but SAfe AIRCRAFT WITH HUGE SURVIVABILITY and built in redundancy.

We are talking about automated Mechanical systems here. the weak point often being the automated part of the system.

The fact is that the tornado (as the F-14) has (many) more automated mechanical systems than a Mirage 2000 so, statistically a Tornado also has a lot more chance to be grounded due to an issue on one of those systems.

I mean… even the canopy closing system of the mirage is manual…

Mirage….. Bad points: 1. Its French.

riiiiight…

2: Its electric, so when you loose power, it crashes.

correct (IFAIK, only one mirage 2000 crash was due to an electrical power loss). But that tells nothing about the respective availability of both planes ? No modern aircraft will ever take off without electrical power… even the Tornado.

Now, if you want to sustain that the numerous automated mechanical systems of the tornado permits a better availability than a plane that has twice less of those systems. Good for you.

Hi Kovy

Could you elaborate on this ?

Last time I checked, the Diesel’s availability was low, unless there was a war on (A-stan, Libya) with negative impact on metropolitan availability / training ops.
Is the Tornado’s situation significantly worse ? Or did the 2000D one improve recently ?

As for the other points, I do agree.

Cheers
AZ

PS : By the way, Hotdog, it’s Libya. “I”s in alphabetic order. Not like Syria. 😉

Availability of the mirage in OPEX (ie with normal spare availability) is close to 100%

You can’t beat the Tornado as far as mechanical failure is concerned. Everyting on this plane has mechanical mooving parts which are prone to failure by design :
The sweep wings
The wing pylons
the refueling prob
the 2 radars
the 2 engine reversers
the air intakes
the airbrakes
2 guns…

Conversely, the 2000D is a very simple aircraft as far as mechanical systems are concerned :

no mooving air intake
single engine with no reverser
fixed refueling probe
elevons instead of flaps + elevators
no guns