KovyWhen and where did that happen and how did they manage to get ahold of a Typhoon?
French AF and Navy Rafale have met UK, Spanish, German and Italian Typhoon on a regular basis for 3 years.
Should be more than enough to assess how good the Frontal RCS of the typhoon is from the RBE-2 point of view, don’t you think ?
Kovybut matters are already complicated!:)
Eurofighter have produced and sold an aircraft to 6 different countries and they would hope to add to this number.
Correction : 4 European states decided to develop and build a common fighter. For that purpose, they created a consortium made up of national aerospace companies to do the work using public funds.
Then Germany sold the aircraft to Austria and UK to Saudi Arabia.
ONe of their key marketing claims is that Typhoon has a very small frontal RCS. This will have been tested.
Well French Air Force and Navy have tested the frontal RCS of the typhoon. And they don’t seem to be that much impressed. (Doesn’t mean it’s bad though)
I can only tell you my opinion, but in my opinion, the frontal return from the intake has been managed well. Otherwise, a key claim of Eurofighter, and a key requirement of the parnter nations will have been proved to have been rubbish.
It would not be the first time that they over advertise something.
Now, I understand that UK and Germany may be very satisfied with the frontal RCS improvement of the Typhoon compared to their previous front line Air Defense fighters (Tornado, F-4)
Kovywe are split on this. there are those who say that Typhoon development has historically been hindered by lack of will on the part of the partners. These same people would point to slow development of a2g capability and say “what facts do you ahve that Typhoon will get everything proposed?”.
Perhaps because they doubt the potential of Typhoon (rafale fans) or perhaps because they have been ground down by years of delays and renegotiation of contracts (Scorpion82).
I have the opposite view. I believe the RAF will require a very capable A2G Typhoon able to carry Stormshadow over distance and loiter on target with Brimstone. I believe this is tied in with the winding down of Tornado operations within the next 4/5 years. These are concrete events to me.
I also believe the RAF will persist with the Electronic Attack development of AESA tactics and technology for Typhoon under Bright Adder (again this is work which is happening quietly now).
So i believe the RAF will drive the integration of Stormshadow and Brimstone by 2014, and consequently it will want its T3A airframes to have CFTs for the Stormshadow role.
If you see the logic of this, and don’t just say “well the Uk has no money so it can’t happen”, then you cannot say India will have to fund AESA/CFT development or that Eurofighter has yet to do the “hard” work on CFTs.
The main obstacle in the typhoon upgrade schedule is the F-35. If the RAF eventually order the type, there will be no money left for the typhoon A2G features. Not to mention the fact that the MoD will probably try not to dublicate capabilities on both aircrafts.
KovyLol do you smell some kind of conspiracy theory here or what?
Let me tell you this, in contrast to you and your likes I’m not so narrowly focussed on a single platform or platforms from a specific origin only, thus I try to keep my self up to date and as informed as possible as time etc. permits.
As Koby(?) recently said something about 45 OSFs I stick with the assumption that three of the four have been fitted with one.
That is what i think indeed.
I’m not sure about the B316 though.
KovyUAE considered the 15 year old Spectra EW obsolete
As if spectra had been frozen 15 years ago…
Such systems are being upgraded continuously. (at both hardware and software levels)
As for your quote, The UAE simply have specific needs for Spectra, as previously with the ICMS mkIII of their Mirage 2000-9. Those Features are fulfilled by dedicated aircrafts in the French Air Forces which explains why they are currently not mandatory for the French Forces Rafale.
Your assertion that Spectra is obsolete because the UAE ask for more is merely bogus.
KovyAll things being equal that applies to any threat reciver and any radar
Any radar is detectable far in excess of the maximum range at which it can distinguish a return.
Edit failed to spot Erakes reply
The difference being that new generation radar receivers are able to locate and range the radar emission with enough accuracy for a BVR missile shot
KovyI don’t remember this quote exactly unfortunately (memory issue). I remember hearing from a rafale pilot that spectra is being able to locate radar emissions at far greater range than a radar would pick up the rafale in a rafale vs typhoon discussion though. I believe it was in 2009.
I will try to look for more at the next paris airshow. I will be there most of the week, especially during professional days when it is easier to access pilots or executives. This time I’ill try to get in contact with Typhoon pilots. Previously it was with rafale and mirage pilots as well as USAF (F15E and F16). Special mention to USAF pilots who were very approachable and friendly. We talked for more than an hour and not only about aviation.
Erf sorry, it was not reported by you but by buddyspike on avions-militaire.net
TMor, do you have more insights on this claim ?
I personnaly think that we should not take the “twice further” statement at the first degree. in my opinion, the rafale pilot said that to indicate that he does have a “first lock” advantage over the typhoon but I wouldn’t take the figure for granted (especially concidering the fact that the pilot in Question could be a bit “Marseillais” :D)
KovyDo you have a source for that?
Direct Chat with Rafale M pilots at Le Bourget Airshow 2009
In fact the exact quote is : “In a nose to nose engagement, the RBE-2 can lock on a Typhoon at twice the range than on a Rafale”
So the RCS advandage (in A2A config i presume) of the Rafale would allow to get a lock 100% (not 50% as stated above) further on a Typhoon than on a Rafale.
Eagle1, do you confirm that ? 😎
If true, I understand why the typhoon would need 40% more modules on its aesa
KovyI don’t have any written evaluation of air to air performance between rafale and typhoon from a typhoon pilot (does anyone?).
That is indeed something that is striking. There are almost 3 times more Typhoon pilots on the planet but they don’t talk very much about their Rafale encounters whereas they are quite vocal about their combats against US vintage teens.
KovyI would offer a couple of counter points, if I may. Regarding the rafale pilots – without actually knowing the other aircraft, and without knowing the context of both their comments and the context of the actual combat – that it is impossible to really take their words as gospel on the subject. Bare in mind that RAF pilots had previously indicated that the Rafale was underpowered in comparison to the Typhoon, a point that French posters with an interest in Rafale seriously dispute. So if they can disregard comments from other forces pilots, why should the AdlA pilots comments be taken more seriously.
Secondly, regarding published sources – there is at least one widely available book, written by Doug Richardson who indicates from his work that the Typhoon has a lower RCS (frontal) than the Rafale. How then do we proceed in assessing the validity of one author’s research over anothers without access to thier sources?
Well the fact that the typhoon enjoy more raw power at high altitude is not really disputed by anyone. It was made for that.
What is disputed is the fact that this is translating into A2A unilateral superiority over the Rafale… which is wrong (IMHO).
As far as Air Combat Maneuvering is concerned, all this power surplus doesn’t seem to be enough to beat the Rafale with a fair margin (In fact, quite the contrary if we believe Rafale pilots).
About the frontal RCS, Rafale pilots claim that they can detect and engage a Typhoon 50% further than another Rafale. That’s a direct clue about the Rafale lower RCS.
The same way I believe the typhoon pilots when they say that they have more power, I believe the Rafale pilots when they say that the typhoon is easier to detect than a Rafale.
KovySTTI anyone…
http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/PIRATE_dsh.pdfTake a look at the bottom of the second page, the right images show the MHDD picture…
I stand corrected then.
What’s the ID range for a fighter size target ?
IRST and ID can work at the same time ?
KovyThe Typhoon capabilities road map is already done the partners will pay their share, the Indian Gov will have to decide if having a 20% share of all future upgrades is desirable or 50% with the Rafale.
Well, it’s not that obvious IMHO. India could very well ends up with having to pay 100% of the bill on several systems/integration if they want them before 2020.
Besides, on many key systems/weapons, Indian share will simply be 0% if they go for the Rafale because, as said before, they are already paid by the French tax payer.
Its also possible that Tranche 3b could be diverted to India at a reduced rate.
That’s almost certain but that’s only 18 aircrafts / 126
…And not really a good thing if the Germans want to show their commitment to the project (and commitment is not very high these days in the EF community to say the least).
The flyaway costs of the Typhoon being bandied about are frankly absurd, depending on fit out (AESA and DASS) the flyaway cost should be roughly the same as Rafale, life cycle costs are something else, I dont have enough info to compare the two (this is where the competition can be won or lost).
What i can say is that we know the cost of the curent Rafale F3 for sure (and F3+ price should not be very difficult to evaluate either as first deliveries will begin next year for the French Forces).
But we don’t really know the cost of the curent Typhoon + the cost needed to bring it to the Rafale F3 level in term of multirole capabilities as none of the 4 EF partners will have such a plane operational before 2018 or so (according to the NAO)
KovyAbout OSF/IRST, does anybody know about Dassault´s offer? I almost presume that is a MMRCA requirement…?
Obviously IRST is lacking from current French deliveries, and not integrated into the ´merged´ situational awareness picture, but I presume India can purchase the ´old´ IRST if it so wants, and the costs of integrating that to be ´merged´ probably isn´t all that much in the scope of setting up a separate production line including engine…???
The French air force/navy are already commited to the OSF NG. Why Dassault wouldn’t offer it to India ?
As for the current deliveries, Even if the planes are not coming out of the assembly line with an OSF, they can get it anytime the French air force feels the need for it, as a pool of 45 of these systems are available and can jump from an aircraft to an other depending on the mission (currently, that’s one OSF to share between 2 Rafale which is not that bad considering the fact that not all missions require the system). But again, that’s a French internal issue which will be favorable to India : the OSF of the Tranche 3 Rafale were not ordered in order to fund the new generation of OSF. (meanwhile the typhoon is stuck with an ageing system with no ID capability, as far as I know)
KovyWhere is it stated that what India wants wouldn’t be paid for if Typhoon is selected? Kind of an odd sales policy by the Eurofighter consortium :rolleyes:
If India wants it then they will get it! Considering how much the deal is worth to the Eurofighter consortium and the partner countries they are hardly going to hold back funding are they!
Eurofighter consortium won’t give those unfunded capabilities for free (L1 clause again …)
IMHO, The only way for EADS to win this one is Offsets and a huge political lobbying from Germany/UK (which is very possible indeed)
The price battle is already won by Dassault because most of the capabilities has already been payed by the french tax payer (Eagle1, Tmor, Cseven, me…. 🙂 ) So Dassault will not have to charge them to India.
KovyWhat are the capabilities the IAF wants and that aren’t funded by the partner nations? Who says the Indians will require all gizmos or that no joint development/funding is possible?
Indeed, but here comes the L1 clause which don’t seems to be in favor of the Typhoon.
As far as capabilities are concerned, at least stand off conventional strike is high in the IAF shopping list. If the typhoon want to narrow the gap with the Rafale for this mission, CFT development (money + time) will be required. But even so, it will still have half the Rafale warload for about the same range.
The nuclear strike capability (which supposes all weather, stealthy low alt. penetration and EM nuclear blast compliance), might also be required even if it is not advertised for obvious reason.
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