Do you guys ever learn it? I suppose not, otherwise would would stop bringing up that nonsense. The JOUST studies were conducted by DERA which makes no money with selling Typhoons, but makes money with studies, research and assessments. DERA was paid to do so by the UK MoD, not by BAe. The purpose was to relief a picture of future aircombat, required capabilities and tactics and to assess the performance of the RAF’s future premier fighter and other contemporary designs against an expected threat. The results were used to develope tactics and identify needs/requirements to optimise the process early on. The only thing Eurofighter/BAe did was to supply data/information for the Typhoon and they use the results for marketing purposes. While JOUST is certainly dated and to a certain extend inaccurate and therefore not representive should be out of question. That doesn’t change the fact that these studies weren’t conducted by BAe for marketing purposes to sell the Typhoon.

aaaaaaaaah thank you.

Because i have absolutly nothing against the real purpose of the Joust simulation.

BUT, I will always fight the marketting and spinning sh!t Bae (yes Bae) did by publishing partial and biased results from this simulation project.

Personally, I’m more interested in what was said, rather than wanting to be distracted by peripheral irrelevant bol.locks about who said it and when.

I thought you were a journalist. 😮
Then, you should know that “who” and “when” are as important as “what”

All right, here we go…

This is a reply, I got from Eurofighter GmbH, on my question regarding ATLC in Al Dhafra.
First, I’d like to suggest ignoring comments like (unjustified, very French, etc,…and I posted them just to make quotation coherent) and concentrate on factual part of the letter.
The importance of this is in the fact that this gives us better insight into ROEs and overall context in which this exercise occurred.

Well, it’s just as I though, so here are some comments:

So, Rafale scored 7/1 against Ty/Red side? Now, considering “Red side” flies with onboard sensors only and with WVR missiles, in that context reducing MICA’s range to give ASRAAM a chance to shoot at all, makes sense, but hardly any point. Given the claim that Rafale flew “Red team” too, we can only imagine how Rafale fared there and it wouldn’t surprise me if it got banged 0/8. (I’m pretty sure F22 would got banged too in that setup).

Another thing is that, “EF carried more” and was “above Rafale”.
This most probably means that Rafales flew A/GCI, while EF flew CAPs and/or swing tasks. I don’t think there’s a need to specially emphasize the importance of this and overall concept of initiative in the air, but let’s do it just in case.
So, flying low gives your sensors (radar/IR) better range at equal output power and if Rafales called IR shots, that means they approached in silence. If externally guided (AWACS/Ground), the low plane can track while beam-ride high one, thus completely denying it tracking and therefore dictate terms of battle and have initiative.

Few questions for the end…
– What was the score when Rafale flew “Red team”? EF equal handicap.
– What happened when Rafale flew swing/CAP/whatever heavy configuration? EF equal handicap.
– What happened when Rafale got above EF? EF equal handicap.

To conclude.
As usual, only partial truth (very partial in this case) was disclosed in the report from “French Lt.Colonel” and it’s pretty obvious he found himself in the same situation, mr.Beesley is in LM, today. This is why establishing personal credibility is stupid and irrelevant. They all say what they must, if want to keep the job.

Another good pointer of “worth” of this score was the fact that no news agencies relayed that report, except that once press conference (which I didn’t find anywhere, btw) and so it was most probably an (unsuccessful) attempt to sway Brazil, France’s way since mr.Lula declared Rafale buy delay a few days later.
So, why nobody denied this result? Because it was so far off any point that apparently no one even figured there’s a need to publish it in the first place, while apparently French position is such that it called for such a desperate measure. Well, there’s no dignity in business and Dassault must sell.

Now, this is where knowing your way around an aircraft helps and keeps you out of dumb conclusions, like ones many French posters managed to draw from this report.
I always thought highly of French posters here, but after seeing many of them falling down to pfcem’s level, I must say I was rather disappointed.

No offense guys…

Give us a brake

That is the exact same reply Jon Lake gave us one month ago from the very same person except the fact he didn’t have the honnesty to tell us who was his source…

http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1842&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p12518

by Jon Lake on 18 Dec 2009 23:28
An RAF pilot who participated in the actual exercise said to me that: “We have no idea how good it is in comparison to us as we are not allowed to merge with it in dogfights.”

A senior industry source (who also didn’t want to be named) said:

“The stories about the Rafale vs Typhoon are an unjustified and unfair representation of what actually occurred.

In the exercise sorties Typhoons and Rafales worked together on the same team! There were red Typhoon/Rafale combos and blue Typhoon/Rafale combos.

During the CT (continuation training) sorties outside ATLC both Typhoon and Rafale squadrons were conducting work-up sorties for their junior pilots and yes – mistakes were made on both sides where some results like those quoted did occur (but both for and against Rafale) – however to make a big deal about training results would be unfair and entirely unrepresentative.”

I hope to learn more now that 3 Squadron are back.

I think that Rafale probably did well against F-22, but in that context, it just means they took longer to be wiped out.

“A senior industry source (who also didn’t want to be named)”
LOL, Good old Jon Lake, so, he was in fact talking about the eurofighter Gmbh communication guy who has to reply to the thousand weekly mails sent by typhoon fan boys who can’t swallow the fact that the rafale is not as bad in A2A as they thought.

Kovy,
Since when do QRA Typhoons carry designation pods?

Thanks, I know.
It was to point out that the typhoon ldp are useless for the missions they are tasked for

Romun,

In service, the AdlA Rafale still has no LDP.

It has no means of hitting a moving ground target autonomously, except by strafe.

30 mm rounds are already overkill against a toyota or mr. homar motorcycle…

If the current moving threats were BMPC ot T-xx the integration of the LdP would be finished since a long time.

At the end, what was the point of integrating a raw and poor Ldp capability for the typhoon whereas it cant deploy usefully where it is needed ?

1) Not enough of them to do the UK AD/Falklands job. Certainly not enough to do more than a ‘tick in the box’, ‘ooh look, we’ve deployed three Typhoons’ sort of media deployment.

lol ! not enough of them ?! How many typhoon are currently in operational service with the four partners airforces ? (which are all nato members BTW !)
More than 160 !
Dont tell me you can’t send half a squad to Bagram (the bigest nato AB in the world with all the ground support you need) when you can deploy a couple of them to the sh!t hole of the world (falklands) where the only threat they will ever face are argies seagulls…

As for the “ooh look we’ve deployed 3 typhoon” to actually make fun of the rafale deployment to Afghanistan that DID support NATO ground forces (including UK) … it does not make me laugh.
As a french tax payer i expect that the very best of our air force and Navy fighters are sent to Afghanistan to support NATO ground troops. And what I’ve seen so far are multiple crach programs and urgency budgets unlocked to ensure that the rafale can take very quikly is part in the job done over there. And the next time they will be sent over there you can be sure that the ldp and rover will be part of the program.

BTW, as a matter of fact, not 3 but 15 rafale were deployed to Afghanistan during spring 2007.

Meanwhile , typhoon are taking pictures of peacefull Tu-95 with their sniper pods. What a joke. 😡

The F4 of GAF have good radar and Amraams. So they made BVR kills. Even if we don’t know the final score or whether the Rafales were on air to air or striker aircrafts, still one F4E is on a photo and shows the killmarks.

AFAIK, The rafale were simulating fox 1 shooters during this exercice.