Kovy1.I understand this eases the pilot’s workload but where does the Rafale pilot view his radar offensive/defensive display, also can the input to the large MFD in the centre be changed? (like from terrain to offensive situation).
The head level display (which is colimated to infinity) is used for the radar picture
3.Both the Rafale and EF take voice commands and use touch screen controls right?
I don’t think the EF uses touch screen.
Voice command will be implemented on rafale F3
4.Aren’t sidesticks a bit hard to control with? Wouldn’t it be a bit like driving a car with the steering wheel on the passenger side?
Side stick is very confortable for the pilot : the ejection seat can be more leant allowing a better G-load tolerance. The F-16 proves that brilliantly
Kovy1. What’s the current flyaway cost of a Rafale?
€50 millions for a rafale C. (the cheapest of the rafale)
KovyMy opinion is the Lockheed Martin has made so many F-16s that they are the most inexpensive fighters around (and in the Block 50/52 form, pretty darn capable) and LM seems to be willing to sell them to just about ANYBODY!!! Parts/support isnt a problem……..so why would anyone buy anything else? It will be a long time befor F-35 out sells F-16.
Because some countries don’t want to buy american (or can’t) or want dual sources to keep their independance (like the EAU, greece, India, Saudi Arabia)
KovySo, why did Europe continue spending billions to develope and deploy the Typhoon and Rafale after 1989?
The rafale industrialisation has been officially launched in 1988, for a service entry planed in 1996. 3 years later, when the soviet union collapsed, the budgets were cut and the the service entry delayed to 2000-2006.
BTW, europe still needs to replace her very old planes like phantom II, F-104, mirage F1, jaguar, F-8 etc…
Kovyimho the orders will happen in the 5 next years.
If the F-35 is late and too expensive they will continue after 2010
Dassault will produce rafales for the french air force until 2019…so they have 14 years left to get orders 🙂
KovyEADS is also part of the Neuron project 🙂
In fact, this project only lacks a british component (and a german one too, but with Eads involved it is less a problem)
And because of their commitment to the JSF stealth technology, the british will never be allowed to join the neuron.
I mean, Sweeden, France, Spain, Italy, Greece and Switzerland have join the neuron… that is more countries than the eurofighter itself although it is led by one company (dassault)
In my humble opininion, the neuron team is the embryo of a new european organisation to compete with the USA on the fighter jet (maned or not) market
KovyI suppose that when a country wants to buy an aircraft from Dassault, the company directs it to Arme de l’ Air. So the potential customer actually performs the tests with French operational aircrafts. I am pretty sure that both versions of M2000, the -C and the -5 were excelllent during tests with AdlA aircrafts.
The disapointment should have come when they see their own aircrafts. So the reasonable explanation is that the products that the French companies (notice the plural) deliver are less capable than those that stay within the borders of France.
I think this is obvious (actually I don’t think, I know, it happen to have personal experiance when working in manufacturing a French defence system for a co-production program – there were notices on the parts lists for different versions of drawings).
Your post is funy because in France, everybody complain that our aircrafts are outdated (mirage 2000 C/D) compared to the aircrafts we are exporting (mirage 2000-9/-5mk2) 🙂
So, my conclusion is that anyone who believes that buying RAFALE would have a top class fighter like the one he sees at French carriers should think of it twice.
lol ! The ICMS mk3 is the best ECM suite ever created for the mirage 2000 !
French mirage 2000-5F and 2000C ECM suite is based on the much older “sabre” jamer. Even the mirage 2000 D which have the best ECM suite (until the arrival of the rafale spectra off course) in the armée de l’air only have the ICMS mk1 suite.
No, the problem is that Greece mirage 2000-5mk2 are the first to get the ICMS mk3. Thales will need a few time to make it works smoothly as it is the most complex and powerfull ECM suite ever created for the mirage 2000.
KovyThe problem with European involvement in the JSF program is that each country is acting as a individual customer. If they had acted as one and joined at the same time, they might have found themselves in a better position.
exactly ! I don’t understand why they have not used the same kind of organisation as for the F-16 :confused:
In my opinion the JSF situation is more evidence that the EU isn’t going to work.
In my opinion the JSF situation is more evidence that we need more EU integration for the european weapon aquisitions :p
Kovy1) French hate Greeks more than any other customer so they give them faulty equipment.
2) Greeks do really good job at the acceptance tests while countries like India, Egypt, UAE don’t test what they buy.
3) Greeks want everything they buy to be like F-16, so every difference they find they call it “problem”
4) The problems that are mention are not the real ones but there might be others that have to do with money, politics etc.
I think it is #2
One of the primary reason for the greeks to choose the 2000-5mk2 was probably the ICMS mk3 which is said to be very very powerfull with some kind of elint features.
The price for this advanced ECM suite was certainly very high therefore it is logical that the greek are expecting something perfect from Dassault and Thales.
Kovyfor once, I’m going to say someting nice about the EF :p
Bravo eurofighter, keep them going 🙂
So, it’s more than the Rafale now?
yes. there are only 18 serial production rafale delivered so far, 4 of them being used as trial arcrafts by Dassault. (the delivery rate is about 1 rafale a month, increasing slowly to 1.5)
KovyA lot of people like to see the EU as the answer to the US but the EU is a fractured economic union whose individual entities’ political and military interests differ from that of the EU’s. Live with it! And the US will obviously use its clout to maintain several wedges that keeps the EU fractured on various issues. Would anyone expect it do other wise?
that’s right, but you are blind if you don’t see where the EU is going. This is just the begining of the european military industry and as for airbus, it’s going to grow as soon as the polical will will be strong enough.
The jsf is a little brake, but it could be the last one.
KovyI would argue that it is wiser NOT to spend money on stealth technology if you can buy it more cheaply from someone else, like the US, I think you should do so.
You miss the problem !
The problem is not to buy or not to buy the F-35. The problem is the money spent by the EU countries in the development of the F-35. From a USA point of view this money represents nothing more than a ticket to enter the jsf club which eventualy gives you no right in the program but to buy the plane in 5/8 years. But from a european point of view, this money represents quite a lot and if we do the math, EU will spend more in the jsf development than in the neuron project for exemple.
My point is simple : If there is no benefit for our military aerospace R&D we should not invest in the F-35 development at all. instead, just buy the plane off the shelf when it is ready and when its price is known.
BTW, you assume that LM and DoD promises about the JSF were true
they promised :
– very low unit price (less than $40 million)
– state of the art weapon system and stealth
– oustanding workshares given to the best compagnies
The reality :
– the price increase each year
– EU countries will get a downgraded version because of the american protectionism on sensible technology (especially on stealth features)
– The previous point prevent european compagnies to get serious workshare.
KovyNeuron is not a JSF replacement.
As far as I know, Italy has not left the JSF program. If what you say is true, they have just joined a UAV/UCAV project.
Off course not ! But unlike the jsf, it will allow Italy and the other neuron partners to get/develop advanced technologies for their own (ie EU).
What is the point to give money for the jsf development if your aerospace industry can’t benefit from it.
And please, don’t tell me stories about the workshare of Bae. Everybody knows that Bae is as american as british now. They are so dependant on US technology that they aren’t alowed to partitipate to any stealth european project.
KovyThe benefit of the JSF is that European countries can get a stealthy latest generation fighter by getting the US to pay for 90% of the development
This would be correct if there was no european military aerospace industry to feed (with R&D) and if the european compagnies were unable to develop their own equivalent state of the art technologies.
This is not the case and moreover :
1- the european will not get exactly the same “stealthy latest generation fighter” as the US (they will get the playscool version instead)
2- They will have zero source code and will depend on the USA on almost everything
3- minor workshare on minor sub-systems
Considering point 1, 2 and 3 it would have been the same to buy the jsf off the shelf after a good old contest in order to get a nice price.
BTW it seems like Italy begins to understand that the jsf is a european R&D money trap : they have just get in the neuron project.
KovyWell, technicaly, they probably could, but they would have to stay on the american carrier then :p
Sign In
