I hope you have made a similar approach to Kennet, as they have received an unfair lambasting for their part in the recovery in the mainstream media, without all the facts being investigated, IMO

Still no response to my question? I can only assume that there has not actually been any ‘unfair lambasting’? No comments regarding the treatment of Dennis Coppings family? No surprise there!

I am afraid I am not able to answer that question you will need to direct it elsewhere.

I must echo Tail Gunner’s point of view. He did not say that he knew what Flt Sgt Copping thought or is thinking, only that if it was he, he would find the Kittyhawk displayed at the RAFM of more value than finding and burying bones in the desert. I repeat TG’s point of view, If I were he.

And I would agree, and again, read the words, If I were he (not that he is here to talk to us), I would not give a hoot about my bones, but care more that the world knew what the price of war and combat and all the other things we fought for were.

I find it difficult to fathom that over 4,000 British soldiers were lost and unaccounted for in the Desert Campaign, and we get so excited about one. What about the other 3,999?

In recent months I have refrained from posting on this forum for a number of reasons. The feeling that I am banging my head against a wall being one and the fact that I am just too busy being another. I have to say seeing the statement above has stirred me yet again to respond. This is quite possibly the crassest statement I have ever read on this forum. I have seen comments that argue that from an historic or educational perspective the aircraft is of more value than a war grave, I don’t agree but it is a worthy point for debate. I have seen comments that state that a search in such a vast area is futile or too difficult i.e. too expensive. But I have never seen a post that has tried to attribute the value (or lack thereof) of a human life in such a way.

Firstly your numbers are wrong, as has already been pointed out, allied forces from 1941-42 alone suffered 2,900 KIA, 7,500 MIA in North Africa. These are round numbers I wouldn’t want to make a fuss over the odd one or two!

Secondly who appointed you spokesman for Dennis Copping? For you to invoke the spirit and wishes of the Dennis Copping in the circumstances is frankly offensive beyond words!

Finally to your point that you cannot fathom why there is such a fuss about one man among so many? My first thoughts are that if I need to explain this to you I am frankly already wasting my time. I could talk to you about how Dennis’s family missed him and wondered what had happened to him in the years that followed his disappearance. I could even talk to you about my own family and how similar losses affected them. But I don’t think I will, what I will tell you is that last week this country commemorated fiftieth anniversary of the funeral of Winston Churchill. One man among many who, like him or loathe him, is seen as the symbol of British and commonwealth resistance to the Nazis during world war two. In reality he is only one man, just like Dennis Copping and neither of them won the war single handed, but collectively and with the help and sacrifice of many others they defeated the Nazis and saved what we now call the free world from tyranny. Anyone who believes that these men didn’t understand what they were getting into and the risks that they would face is deluding themselves. They knew very well what could, and did, happen to many of them, but they went anyway because they believed in what they were fighting for and they thought it was worth the sacrifice.

So to answer your question these men could not be any more important. They are the cornerstone of our democracy and the freedom that we all enjoy and many take for granted. Without them we would not have the society in which we live. That’s what all the fuss is about. Do I think we should immediately launch a search for each and every one of the 7,500 MIAs lost in North Africa between 1941-42? No I don’t, but I do believe that given the opportunity we should do our utmost to recover the remains of any of those fallen servicemen if it is within our power to do so. It is a poor exchange, a young promising life cut short to pay for your and my security and freedom in exchange for a little common decency and respect.

Just in case you are struggling to grasp the concept of a poor exchange when money isn’t involved, it is when one party offers a great deal more than another in that exchange. For example a Spitfire worth say £200k in exchange for dismantling another aircraft, packing it into a container and moving it a few hundred miles. Hopefully these terms of reference mean something to you even if the value of a human life apparently eludes you!

Thinking through the evolution of blade manufacture it seems that blades are a good candidate for short run fabrication using 3D laser scanning and CNC from billet. I appreciate that forging blade blanks is a proven and technically sound method, but I sense it was originally driven by economy in material use whereas the problem for modern short run production is amortizing forge tooling costs and forging, where even getting access to a large forging press for short runs is problematical. Modern metallurgy has generated billet remarkable free from defects with grain structures that are superior to anything available to designers seventy years ago. What was unimaginable then is possible now. Obviously somebody needs to invest in the process of bringing regulatory authorities to a point of comfort with this approach, but I can see very little hope for unusual blade types being fabricated within the status quo.

Pictured below are Fairey metal propellors from 1933 (Dr S.A Reed patent), which I understand was the first innovation to break away from the accepted wisdom of timber props. According to Air Annual of the British Empire 1933 the “ construction of the Fairey metal airscrew is extremely simple. A flat forged strip of duralumin, with a hub thickness of 1.5 inches..is cut out to the shape conforming to the plan view of the airscrews. After being profiled throughout the desired aerofoil section by means of a milling cutter or shaping machine the centre twist is applied by means of a hydraulic press. The setting of the outer portions is obtained by means of a twisting machine. Metal shaped bosses are fitted to each side of the airscrew hub.”

In essence this was a machined flat bar 1.5 inches thick with a twist applied to it. I concede this was a forged, flat bar but I would expect that there would not have been off shelf stock bar options in that size then, so there was no other option than to hand forge a block into a flat bar to start the process. How this innovation influenced the later developement of blades with thicker aerofoils made from forged duralumin stock is a self evident progression. But what would a 1930’s designer think of 3D laser scanning and CNC machining and its possibilities? What would they think of modern metallurgy and the purity and consistency of modern materials? In those times the creative mind found its place within the marrow of the industry as today the cautious and acturial mind has risen to the top. No doubt the creative would output five different blade aerofoils in a rapturous day of CAD drafting and CNC machining, and send up the test pilot. Today we may copy with 3D scanning intellectual property for which the generous protection of patents and design registrations has long since elapsed, and the former custodians of this IP show very little interest in single runs of blades because they are not set up in the mind or the factory floor to service this need.

I wonder what a destructive test on a seventy year old NOS blade versus a modern reproduction CNC’d from quality billet would show. The challenge is probably most acutely defined in dealing with replacement turbines for seventy year old superchargers. I don’t know if putting a NOS revolving part that has sat under a chook shed for decades is wise. Gosh I wonder if regulators will ever care enough to let some oxygen into thoughtful short run production of historical aircraft consumables. Probably the most ideal solution for blades is a commercial arrangement with an original equipment manufacturer to supply forged blanks of the right size for finishing in a short run CNC process. Surely there must be someone sitting behind a desk in one of these places who loves to see old metal flung about the sky.

I am really not sure where the idea that what can be achieved now was unimaginable back then comes from. The fact is whilst material formulations have been continuously developed as have the manufacturing processes for billet especially. The original material and quality of prop blades is excellent. It is not simply a case of finding a billet of a modern material of sufficient quality and consistency. The reason the blades were manufactured from forgings was to concentrate the grain flow in specific areas of the blade to impart strength and flexibility in the blade. This would be impossible from a billet, it is simply not possible as the grain flow would not conform to the shape of the blade and concentrate where required. The original process was used for very good reasons and making new blades would need to follow this process. Alloy blades are still used now and are manufactured from forgings, if it was possible to machine them and impart the same properties I have no doubt that prop manufacturers would be doing it.
With regards to overhaul intervals the 3 and 6 year inspection requirement was not the standard previously but a one size fits all easa rule. Frankly many blades are scrapped unnecessarily due to this process.
As previously mentioned Avia are still making blades to order including small runs for HS props.

http://www.aviapropeller.cz/products.htm

I will dig out an article on manufacture of prop blades from the 1940’s that should illustrate the process.

p

After being let down badly on the curtiss engine (by a messer and a half) I was going to buy I have decided to try and find a Beardmore engine instead. Has anyone got any ideas where I may find one and if so please message me with contact details price etc any help would be much appreciated

Not a chap who claims to live in the very north of Scotland by any chance?

Most enlightening! Where do you find a 23EX life ex spider nowadays??

They are pretty rare but I would enquire with one of the hurricane operators. They may have an uservicable spider?

OK, thread is open – I’ve had a skim through a chunk of the 40 or so pages of the original; I’m not sure there is a lot more information there than we already have in the more recent discussions on the fate of Dennis Copping, but feel free to spend time going back through it all!

Play nicely!

Bruce

Thank you Bruce! In the spirit of detente, i have to say having worked with several Egyptians in Afghanistan I have found them extremely charming and helpful. I sincerely hope that Egypt sees more peaceful days ahead!

If the purpose of the original thread was mostly to speak up for the late Mr Copping, then we are doing that amply well here, although a forum thread is unlikely to do anything of the sort. Appropriate high level lobbying might do it, but as Laurence says, the political situation is not helping matters. I do note that whilst Coppings loss has created a huge storm of debate, in the absence of a body, the unfortunate pilots in the Lake Sebago Corsairs have not, and their whereabouts is well known and documented.

You may find the idea that high level members of anything refer to the Flypast forum as amusing, but ill chosen words both here and elsewhere have been significant factors in the failure of other projects in the past. I can assure you that the thread in question was extensively referenced by parties on both sides.

Bruce

I certainly do not belive the lake sebago pilots have been forgotten. Every effort was made to recover both aircraft and pilots. Unfortunately the MOD did everything in their power to stop the recovery! I guess the cost of two military funerals was too much for them! Maybe they spent all the money paying the admirals that now out number the entire fleet!