pat1968PM sent
pat1968hear, hear. I will pass on your wishes
i will take this opportunity to wish everyone on the forum a happy christmas and happy and prosperous new year. While you are enjoying your christmas spare a thought for all our boys and girls out in Afghanistan and around the world who won’t make it home and also those poor souls and their families who have lost loved ones in the service of their country.
Best wishes Pat
pat1968Production engines were tested on Heenan and Froude DPX 7D dynamometer test beds. Initially they were ‘driven’ by a 100hp electric starter motor at speeds between 250-1000 RPM without plugs installed. This continued for 1 hour so that ignition, auxiliary temps and pressures could be checked.
On satisfactory completion of this test the spark plugs were installed and the engine started. The engine was then ‘run in’ at 800 RPM, an inspection was then made of the engine and instruments before running continued. Loads and speeds were constantly adjusted until after four hours careful handling a speed of 3000 RPM was reached. Tuning, pressure and engine adjustments were then carried out, oil consumption was measured and performance characteristics taken. The engine was then subjected to severe load and speed output tests at both sea level and simulated altitude. Final checks consisted of a series of timed accelerations to prove the engines ability to develop max power in five seconds. After the test the engine was removed from the test bed and close inspection carried out including pulling the oil screens.
The engine was then completely stripped and inspected and all engine component histories recorded. The engines was then re-assembled and returned to the test cell where the same tests were carried out again with the exception that the running in period was reduced to one hour. Once finished if all was satisfactory the engines was packed and shipped.
I hope that answers the question.
pat1968Sorry i forgot to say welcome back Andy! How many times have you been banned now? You will never make a good politician if you go around telling the truth all the time!
pat1968No idea? I can only assume so? Can anybody add anything to this? If Mr Manna is on a public speaking tour imminently does.that mean there will be an announcement regarding the recovery? My interest is in the evidence that Dennis was killed in the crash.This clearly has a bearing on where his remains may be now.Has this information been passed on to the investigating parties if there are any? What is going with regards to searching and recovering his remains?
pat1968There is an interesting section on the historic flight website.
“February 23, 2013, “Recovering the Egyptian P-40 Kittyhawk”
In June of 2012, an intrepid group of recovery experts, lead by the Royal Air Force Museum’s Tim Manna, ventured into the Egyptian desert to recover a P-40 Kittyhawk buried in sand for seventy years. Beginning at noon on February 23rd, Tim will tell the tale of 125-degree temperatures and other challenges he and his group faced, as well as the poignant story of the pilot apparently killed in the crash. Plans for display of the Kittyhawk have not yet been announced but may include a touring exhibit to aviation museums including HFF. Tim’s photographs are spectacular.”
here is the link to their website;
before the mods get excited the relevant piece of information for this thread is the assertion that “the pilot apparently killed in the crash.” I would certainly be interested to hear any information that could confirm this? Anyone in the know with the Historic flight?
pat1968powerandpassion i am not sure about the demon but the Hind has a starter mag mounted on the right hand side of the engine mount that is gear and chain driven. It is switched on from the the cockpit by a narrow 5c/547 switch situated on the lower right hand side of the control panel. The Aussy Demons might be different?
pat1968I have finally received a reply from my MP, Chris Skidmore, so i take back (most) of the unkind things i have said about him! Here it is in its entirety;
Dear Patrick,
Thank you for your e-mail of 9th November, with regard to Flight Sergeant Copping. I do appreciate you taking the time to get in touch and pass on your concerns.
My understanding is that the Ministry of Defense, despite earlier errors, is now working with the team that discovered the remains in Egypt in order to identify them. They have also undertaken to keep Flight Sergeant Copping’s family properly updated on the progress of this investigation.
Obviously the earlier procedural mistakes were unacceptable, particularly when it comes to a matter as sensitive as a lost serviceman and his family. I know that ministers in the department will be paying very close attention to how this now proceeds, in order to ensure that FIt. Sergeant Copping’s family are treated with the utmost respect.
The MOD’s Service Personnel and Veterans Agency continues to investigate whenever the remains of possible British service personnel are discovered on wartime battlefields. Furthermore, attempts are always made to find surviving family members and, where appropriate, a service funeral will always be provided in the nearest Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery to the find.
I hope that this has been of some use. If there is anything else I can help you with, as your local MP, please do not hesitate to get in touch.
with all best wishes
Chris Skidmore MP
In fairness Chris does seem to have made a reasonable fist of researching what is going on and does acknowledge the mistakes that have been made in the handling of this by the MOD. However clearly there is some kind of disconnect with regards to the maintenance of contact with the family. I have been in contact with the family and they are adamant that they have had no contact with the MOD since they were told that the remains discovered were ‘categorically not those of Dennis Copping’. I believe that the information contained in the letter is truthful as far is Chris is concerned (and probably the other MPs’ who have replied) but clearly there is at best a miscommunication between JCCC and the MOD in Whitehall. I will reply asking why this is the case and report back.
pat1968Do the MoD regard John as the NOK? Or is there another close family member they could be in contact with?
NOK usually determined in the order: spouse, issue, parents, siblings….
Uncle mort John Pryor Bennett is registered with the MOD (via) JCCC as the next of kin.
pat1968Hi All,
I have spoken to Dennis Coppings’ family again this evening who have confirmed that they have not been contacted by the MOD, either for an update or a long overdue apology, since they were informed that the remains discovered by the Italians were ‘categorically not those of Dennis Copping”. So despite the protestations of the MP’s who have taken this to the Defense ministry, no one from the MOD has maintained contact with the family. For the absence of any doubt John Pryor-Bennett is registered as Dennis Coppings’ next of kin so he should be the point of contact for the MOD’s Joint Casualty and compassionate Centre, JCCC. Please anyone who has had the courtesy of a reply from their MP (I certainly have not! Shame on Chris Skidmore Con!) contact them and relay this information so that they might ask for an explanation.
Whilst it is good news that there now seems to be some forward momentum at least in terms of communication between the Defense attache and the Italians why oh why have the MOD not had the good grace to at least apologise to the family for feeding them completely erroneous information and update them on the current activity with regards to the search and identification of Dennis?
pat1968Something is odd here.
The bones are reported to have been found five kilometres away from the wreck. Some have said five miles.
I believe the distance was reported by Qattara as 8km or 5 miles hence the confusion.
Imagine what one square kilometre of barren rocky sand looks like then multiply it by 78 and that is the square area that you would have to systematically search to find the bones working out to the five kilometre radius location.
Strange. I don’t think we are hearing the full story here.
Mark
You are almost certainly right, I was just as skeptical about the possibility of discovering remains in such a large area. There may well be intelligence available to Qattara that he may not want to share in public? It may be a masterful piece of deduction or a complete fluke. The other thing to note is that things can look very different when you actually get on the ground. It maybe (and i don’t know) that if any of us walked southeast from the crashsite the site where the bones are located maybe the only obvious source of shelter? I certainly think that there is likely to be more to this than meets the eye which is why the site and the remains need to be investigated further.
pat1968Picking my way through the complexities of this thread and trying to follow it through I have not understood why those who are being obstructive, are being obstructive. What have they to gain?
I think this is a really good question. Some months ago on the previous thread that is taking a ‘short break’ we discussed the fact that the MOD does not have a field team to carry out this kind of work. I believe i am correct in saying that we are one of the few industrialised nations who take this stance. They also discourage ‘amateurs’ from undertaking recoveries.
I believe the answer is simply that the resources are not actually available and the government does not want to come out and say that they will not be do anything to identify and recover these remains. I also believe that there is resentment that these issues are raised by us ‘amateurs’.
pat1968It is not so easy to activate a procedure of removal of human remains from Egypt due to the archaeological history !
The fact that it may not be necessarily easy should not be a consideration.
In my opinion there are too few elements to argue that those are the remains of Copping!
Given the fact that modern technology can cheaply and easily determine, catagorically, whether or not these remains are those of Dennis Copping, i fail to see why they should not be tested to either eliminate them or identify them? We have a world leading forensic lab who will do it for us for free! The bottom line is that if no one from the MOD or embassy bothers to make any enquiries at all, it is very easy to dismiss them. It’s a catch twenty two, we won’t carry out any investgation unless we are sure they are the remains of Dennis Copping, but if no investgation is carried out we cannot move forward. Hence a convienient stalemate! One thing is absolutely true at this point we do not know that they are NOT the remains of Dennis Copping!
pat1968Not wishing to underplay the importance of a satisfactory outcome to this investigation and recovery, but I keep wondering whether the embassy staff have other perhaps more pressing issues to deal with at this difficult time in the region.
Whilst one would hope that this may well be true they do not even seem to have the man power available to empty their malbox! I don’t think anyone here would argue that the embassy has many important things to do. It does not excuse a complete lack of any kind of response whatsoever. The response so far from the defense attache has been to dissmiss the remains found by Qattara and his team on the basis that (and my sincere apologes to Qattara and the other Italian team members) ‘the information from them can not be relied upon’ (that is a polite version) Quite how anyone could have come to that conclusion without any more information than any of us have is difficult to fathom. Whilst we are on the subject of better things to do remember that the defence attache managed to make the time to travel all the way to the crash site for the recovery of the aircraft. After making the time to lobby the Egytian government so that the recovery could be made in the first place. He apparently could not make the time to travel a further 8km (5 miles) to the site of the remains. If they are busy and are working on movng this forward as they are able why can they not just say that and stop treating us all like mushrooms! We are not fools and I am in no doubt that is how we are viewed.
pat1968I have received news today to the effect that, in spite of what PeterVerney’s MP says, the team that found the human remains has NOT been contacted by the British Embassy in Cairo, and that the bones have NOT been given to anyone for analysis.
This is absolutely disgraceful, it is bad enough that they make a complete hash of the whole thing now they are telling bare face lies!
I incidentally have not heard anything from my MP, other than an automated response to my email. I am looking forward to attending one of his surgeries and asking for an explanation. Maybe he is remodeling his duck pond or whatever these people actually do?
I would suggest re-contacting your MP and pointing out the fact that his information is clearly in error?
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