RE: Arthur’s fine

“And why should Israel attack Iraq if not threatened by them ?? “

You try building a nuclear power station in Iraq….

So now the reactor at Osirak was a power station? I guess people like Mr. Hamza are lying then… Really Garry, by making statements like this you make yourself redicilous.

RE: Another PLO victory

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-06-02 AT 07:11 PM (GMT)]So, the Palestinians should all be living in Jordan then. If that’s the case, where do we put all the Jordanians?

That would imply that the Jordanians actually are Palestinians. After all, Jordan and it’s citizens were originally part of the Mandate of Palestine.

Didn’t King Hussein kill thousands of Palestinians living in camps in the 60’s or 70’s?

Well, in the sixties Hussein supported PLO terrorists, who crossed the border into Israel, and carried out terrorist attacks there. However, slowly the PLO itself, with Arafat at it’s head, became a threat to King Hussein, becoming a state within a state, with all kinds if privileges and powers. The PLO became too powerfull, and was becoming a danger to the Hashemite rule. That is why King Hussein decided the PLO must leave. In 1970, he sent his army to finally kick the PLO out of Jordan, resultimg in the deaths of thousands (IIRC) Palestinians. After a short period of fighting the PLO went out. Syria didn’t want to absorb these PLO terrorists, as they knew they were trouble-makers. The PLO went to Lebanon, resulting in a civil war, and a continuation of terrorizong Israel, but this time from Lebanon.

But the land of Israel exists in books and scriptures which have never been proved to be true or indeed untrue. In that sense, if you have no christian belief, Isn’t Israel just as ethereal and insubstantial a place as Camelot or Xanadu?

Well, the accuracy of the Bible may be debatable, but there has always been a Jewish presence in Israel. Many archeological findings in Israel point to that.

And haven’t Palestinians always had a presence in Israel?

I don’t know about that, it isn’t clear whether the current Palestinians are the same people who once also populated (parts of) the land of Israel. There have been many rulers of the land of Israel, and many peoples lived there.

I am English and therefore consider myself to be living in a democratic state. I don’t see having tanks demolishing half of my town as a benefit.

I am not referring to the cities outside the Green Line, where many suicide bombers come from, where many terrorists can be found, and where the Palestinians fought fiercefully. Hence the need of tanks. I was talking about the Arab resident living inside the Green Line. They, like all Israelism benefit of the social security system, of the taxes, everything.

I wouldn’t consider it beneficial to have my family’s home demolished with 2 hours notice so that a settler from somewhere else can come in.

This is certainly not settlements are created. Settlements are created on empty lands, not in or on houses of Palestinians. Sure, houses of Palestinians are destroyed, but that is because they don’t have the permits to build them. And that is nothing racial, getting a building permit in Israel is hard and takes a long time, Jew or not.

I have never had to live under curfew and have never been prevented from taking a sick family member to the nearest hospital. Are these also the benefits of living in a democratic state@

I already explained numerous times why, at times, Palestinian ambulances are being stopped. I suggest you take a look at some older threads about Israel, like the one about Jenin. I do like to add that even suicide bombers whose mission failed, and still live, are being treated in Israeli hospitals, often laying not far away from their victims. I saw a most interesting documentary about Hadassah hospital in Jerusalem, exactly telling this story. I don’t think the Palestinians would do a similar thing if things were the other way around.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

Geforce, I have a dual nationality. I am both Dutch and Israeli. I support the US war on terror. I don’t like that new US law, that is discusses in the other thread very much. But on the other hand, I don’t think that the international court is goign to work as advertized. It will most certainly become politicized very fast. That, however, is a different story.

As an Israeli living in The Netherlands I am very concerend about what’s going on in Israel, I am concerned about my family, about the people I know there. And I don’t think someone else has the right to comment on that.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

You say they want “the entire land that was once the Mandate of Palestine.” So you agree that Palestine existed.

No, you must have misunderstood me. Palestine was never a country as such. Before the Mandate of Palestine, which was administered by the British, the Ottomans ruled the area. Palestine, as said was never a country. Also note that what is now known as Jordan was originally also part of the Mandate of Palestine, untill the Brits decided to give it to the Hashemite family. Hence Israel’s decades-long argument that there already is a Palestinian state.

But now Israel exists on that same piece of land. So, what happened to Palestine? Did Palestine and the Palestinian people cease to exist? Are you saying thet Israel and the Jewish people just planted themselves there and said o.k., I call this patch of land Israel?

Jews always remained in the land of Israel. In Hebron there was an Jewish presence for centuries, in Jerusalem Jews lived since forever. In the entire land of Israel there was always a Jewish presence. What happened in the 1920s and 1930s was that Jews decided to go back to where they once came from: the Land of Israel. This was partly due to European anti-semitism. And after WWII many Jews decided that they no longer wanted to live in Europe. The Jewish people were not safe there.

The state of Israel was, I believe, created in 1948, but do you believe it was right that your nation should be set up on someone else’s land and expect the indigenous population not to fight back?

The nation was not set on somebody elses land any more that that any state was created on somebody else’s land. However, Jews were ready to compromize: the Mandate of Palestine was to be split in two states: one for the Jews, and one for the Arabs. Furthermore, Israel was meant to be a state for all people. This view is echoed in the Decleration of Independance.

Israel has pushed the Palestinians into two pockets of land, the west bank and gaza and keeps the rest for themselves. Can this truly be justified?

Israel never pushed the Palestinians into to pockets of the West Bank. Many left of their own accord. But some Arabs stayed, and they enjoy all the benefits of living in a democratic state.

I hope this makes things more clear to you, Kev.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

Thank you PII, and be sure that many Israelis are with you and the US too.

RE: Another PLO victory

Why, exactly, are Israel and the Jewish people hated so much?

I don’t know, I think you should ask that to some of our European friends. I’m sure they can perfectly explain why Jews were hated so much in Europe ever since the Romans led the Jewish into diaspora.

What would drive people to destroy their own lives in order to kill more of their ‘enemy’?

A thorough brainwash, I’d say. If you notice what people generally carry out suicide attacks, you’ll see that it’s the young people that carry out the attacks. Suicide bombers of the age of 16 or 17 are not uncommon, but there were cases in which 13 year old suicide bombers were arrested.

I think that only after a thorough brainwash, and enough hatred planted into the mind of young people, who are more receptive for radical ideas, one is willing to sacrifice his life to a certain cause. The brainwash usually already starts at kindergarten, where children learn songs about the ‘awful Jews’. It is continued in elementary school, with ‘history’ books depicting the Jews as evil people, math classes were children are being asked to solve problems like this: if there are 10 Jews, and I kill 3 of them, how many Jews are there left? When these children come home, they turn on their tv. And what do they see? What programs can they watch? Sesame Street? Nope. They see a show in which young children read aloud poems, which they’ve often written themselves, about their longing to become a martry, about how they hate the Jews et cetera. And in mosques, the imams pray for the destruction of Israel, of the Jews, and they pray that martyrs will rise up. After a year of school, the children have a vacation, a summer break. Some go to summer camps. In these camps they do not learn how to build raft or so. No, they get a military training, they learn to use weapons. And, more importantly, they learn who they must kill with these weapons: Al Jahud, the Jew. And then, after a period of time, some children volunteer. Others are recruited by the various terrorist organizations. That is basically how the system works.

Why do these movements which are representatives of the Palestinian people want to destroy Israel?

These movements are intent on destroying Israel because they feel the land is theirs, and theirs only. They do not want to compromize, all they want (well, all) is the entire land that was once the Mandate of Palestine. Any compromize, or offer to compromize, has been rejected out of hand. Since Israel is not about to surrender, and just give the land to the Palestinians, all that is left for them is to destroyn it. I hope this clears things up.

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

Vortex, Israeli leaders never implied that the incursions would stop the terror attacks. They said it was going to limit terror attacks, and for the moment, the operation was moderately succesfull. In the month prior to operation Defensive Shield there was on average 1 suicide bombing a day, with another 10 or so attemps. The number of attemps, and the number of succesfull bombings have dropped considerably.

What Clinton did was, IMO, the right thing. The Oslo process was meant to take 5 years. After the 5 years, a final solution would have had to be at the tables. That means that in 1998 (!) the Oslo process should have been over, and a final peace agreement be sealed. But even in 2000 (!) Arafat still wasn’t ready to compromize. Now, I don’t want to nitpick, there were setbacks, but still, rejecting a state of their own was redicilous, and the ordering to start organizing violent action, as Arafat did, was against the letter and spirit of Oslo.

You shouldn’t forget, Vortex, that the suicide bombongs started after the Oslo Accords were signed. Each time some important issue related to the peace process came up, a bus was blown up. Israeli intelligence already reported as early as 1995 (!) that Arafat gave ‘green lights’ to terror attacks. Looking back over the years, and with the current Intifada in mind, I can only say that intelligence was indeed right. Conclusion: Arafat acted against the letter and spirit of the Oslo Accords, in which he pledged to renounce (and not denounce) terror. Arafat is unreliable, a liar, and thief also, as it turned out today. He still hasn’t forgotten his old tricks unfortunately. Arafat is still a terrorist. Apparently his goal is still to destroy Israel, he is not ready to compromize, and never will be either. No peace can be made with him as leader of the Palestinians. You don’t sit around the table with Bin Laden either, do you?

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Another PLO victory

Sure, he really helped Israel a lot when he was still able to go whereever he wanted. Oh, and Arafat is free to go where he wants to today. But that is not important of course.