MountainSorry, but this one is what type ! Maybe I’ve missed something ?
Honestly I like both the JF-17 very much and most likely You think on the Block 52 F-16C/D but I think You missed the Korean, Singaporean F-15 …. or am I wrong ?
You may have missed the term “South Asia”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia
Your welcome
MountainThey’ll have to make do with JF-17s and hand me down F-16s for the most part. Expect a struggling PAF in 2025-7, given the pathetic state their overall funding is in & that the US no longer needs them once the Afghan drawdown picks up. J-31s etc? Hardly. They couldnt even buy J-10s
Yet as of right now PAF operates the most advanced fighter plane in South Asia….
Mountainthe point that Mountain was making was that achieving a service entry date of 2025 (deliberately adding 5 years to the current target date) for the Tejas Mk2 would mean it would be obsolete and the only non-stealth airplane entering service anywhere in the world..now I know that he wasn’t doing it to elicit a civil response and have a healthy debate, but his jibe about the PAF not being stationary and somehow the IAF being stuck in time got me thinking about what the future really holds for it and what their plans are.
apart from being factually wrong (with Gripen E being available around that time or a couple of years earlier and perhaps even Rafales), the idea that somehow just by not having a chined nose and maybe a DSI intake (with very questionable affect on RCS), the Tejas Mk2 would be obsolete was obviously far from the truth. If that was the case, 3/4th of the PAF would be obsolete by then, and that is assuming that a JF-17 Block 3 has a chined nose, other RCS reduction features and somehow they miraculously manage to fit internal weapons carriage bays on it. or it must carry an external weapons pod like the Advanced Super Hornet, which can be developed for the Tejas Mk2 and Gripen E as well.
When one looks at the most likely orbat of the PAF around that time, the bulk of the PAF would be non-stealthy 3rd and 4th gen JF-17 Blocks with the newer JF-17 blocks getting AESA and 4th gen F-16 Block 50 jets. A credible threat, but hardly one to be giving the IAF sleepless nights.
I mean it’s not like the IAF would be facing an array of a large 5th gen force on its western border for stealth to suddenly be the only desirable quality. Which is why the IAF would even invest so much into Jaguar and Mirage-2000-5 upgrades to keep them going into the 2030s. If the IAF was worried about the PAF in the 2025 timeframe suddenly achieving a qualitative jump, the investment in these upgrades would have been smaller with more Su-30MKIs being bought instead.
As I mentioned earlier, with J-20s seemingly not being on the table, and no certainty about the J-31 as yet (and funding will always remain an issue), it is the PAF which should be worried about its future..the only certainty seems to be more second-hand F-16s and a JF-17 Block 3. As MadRat pointed out, a few years ago it was a given that the J-10 would be in PAF service as the FC-20..now the funds have vanished and suddenly we have Pakistani posters telling us that the PAF now wants to concentrate on 5th gen fighters only for its next fighter type. A similar fate could await the J-31 as well..I mean what if the Chinese don’t want to export J-31s? or expect cash for it and the Pakistani economy doesn’t improve drastically by then? Or what if it doesn’t match expectations of performance? The PAF will keep a very keen eye on the J-31 development but for now, nothing seems certain.
Assuming they do manage to buy a couple of squadrons of J-31 and I’m taking the figure as 2 squadrons since they originally intended to buy 36 or so J-10s, that would still mean a fighter force primarily made up of F-16 Block 50s and JF-17s..the F-16s that have been upgraded or bought from the RJAF would not be left with too much life in their airframes and would need to be replaced by the 2030s.. so that would put added pressure on the PAF.
Neither of these seem daunting when arrayed against an IAF with large numbers of FGFA at the tip of its spear, followed by Super-30s, Su-30MKIs and MRCAs, Mirage-2000-5s, MiG-29UPGs, Tejas Mk1/2s, Jaguars..not to mention that the IN itself will have nearly a 100 N-LCAs and MiG-29Ks by then with a possible third fighter being also being considered.
One more possible option could be the Turkish TF-X, but it seems that the Turks have gone in for a twin engined configuration and a relatively large design at that..that would drive up costs and make any meaningful numbers for the PAF quite unaffordable.
Point being ultimately that Mountain’s boast that “PAF will look very different in 2027” doesn’t seem to be completely true. The bulk of the fighter types will be the same. And there is no certainty or guarantee of the 5th gen type. Not a situation one ought to go thumping one’s chest about.
Blackarcher
Again you seem to type a lot but actually communicate very little in the above. As per usual, you make out a best case scenario for the IAF and worst case for the PAF. Again making assumptions that are clawed in order top present a picture that fits in with your reality.
You say for instance J-31 may not be exported whilst Aviation Week and Defence News indicate it may have been developed for the very purposes of export.
Here is not a time to talk about what the IAF will be fielding, but to suggest PAF will definately be facing numbers of MRCA and FGFA when you and I both know that there is a possibility production deals for these may never be signed at all considering how badly both procurment projects are being run. The whole “Pakistan cant afford it” argument was the same one used just before PAF inducted 8 AWACS planes, 4 refullers and SPADA 2000 Air defence systems, so really hard for me to take it seriously.
Right now PAF is actually in the process of manufacturing the Block II version of the JF-17 and has finalised what Block III will be about.
By 2027 PAF will still have very large numbers of F-16s and JF-17s, I already mentioned that, but to think somehow they will have a “procurement holiday” is not accurate at all
MountainExelis’ AN/ALQ-211(V)9 pod cleared for installation on Pakistani F-16 fighters
1 October 2014
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f-16
The Exelis-built AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) has been cleared to fly on board the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fighter aircraft.
The clearance follows completion of the US Air Force’s (USAF) Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, which included a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16’s basic limits.
Working in collaboration with the USAF and Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, the Exelis team evaluated two stores configurations at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions.
Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business vice-president and general manager Joe Rambala said: “The AIDEWS pod provides the US and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft.
“Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system’s advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat.”
“Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system’s advanced RF protection.”
Currently limited to F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft procured by PAF through the Peace Drive 2 foreign military sales programme, the certification can be readily extended to both domestic and foreign F-16 Blocks 25 to 52 fighters.
An external pod variant of the Exelis ALQ-211 family of electronic self-protection systems, AN/ALQ-211(V)9 is a self-contained integrated electronic countermeasures and radar warning receiver system designed to protect the F-16 fighter from radio frequency threats.
Offering the flexibility to be installed or removed based on mission requirements, the pod provides digital radar warning, high-power jamming, threat geo-location and situational awareness using line replaceable units interchangeable with internal AIDEWS systems.
The AN/ALQ-211(V)9 is claimed to be the only digital radio frequency memory-based electronic warfare pod certified to F-16 basic aircraft limits, including requirements for lightning protection.
Mountain10 years is a very long time in this part of the world. Who knew 10 years ago that India would be flying P8is and Pakistan would get new Block 52+
Most of Pakistan’s acquisitions have been out of the blue (Block 52, Mar 1, Erieye to name a few) unlike the very public drawn out processes in India so anything can happen.
Spot on point. You will see Indian media cover every process of almost every major procurement in detail, whilst Pakistan has always kept its card close to its chest (we did not know about RJAF Cobras or F-16s being aqquired till they were literally a week away from delivery). This may be due to better civilian oversight of the military in India or the fact that I guess military reporting in Pakistani media. Also most US aqquisitions mean there is no tender process (especially if Pak is using FMF)
Certainly I dont see PAF suddenly standing still for an entire decade. Not unless China and US slap an embargo on Pakistan. I suspect that any new fighter will be a replacment for early model F-16MLUs and I suspect this may well end up being the J-31
MountainAnd there were statements FC-20 would be in the PAF. It hasn’t happened. Times change.
Of course, but as of now, PAF planes to skip a generation (and no doubt economics played a role in this decision), but whatever way you look at it PAF modernisation is definately “on track”
7 F-16/JF-17 sqds and now only 7 Mirage/F-7PG sqds. Over the next 3 years PAF have indicated at least one more ex RJAF F-16MLUs and 3 more JF-17s (Block II)
These are not pipe dreams but facts. By 2016 you can expect to see a all F-16/JF-17 force of 12 squadrons with two Lead in Fighter trainer squadrons of F-7PGs.
As far as PAF is concerned that is a massive quantum leap over the situation 1 years ago. So by 2017 PAF will have at least another 10 years to evaluate, purchase and induct replacements for the early F-16s.
J-31 is probably very high on the list for this.
MountainThere is no indication J-31 will fly in the PAF.
Not what this Aviation Week article and AVIC marketing team think. Will stick with their articles rather then your opinions
http://aviationweek.com/awin/avic-promotes-j-31-export-fighter
I know that may not fit into your world view of what you would like to see, but lets not forget that there were many on this forum poo pooing the idea of PAF having Erieye and Bloack 52s just a few years ago.
Also to clarify PAF officers are ON RECORD as saying F-7PGs and Mirages will be totally phased out by 2017
MountainHere is a thread on the subject from that blissful era before Mountain showed up.
In short, if finances permit, JF-17 will be the PAF mainstay in 2025, complemented by smaller numbers of F-16s and J-31s. If finances do not permit, scrap J-31 and retain some older aircraft.
J-31 sharing WS-13 engine with JF-17 will help with affordability. The engine itself could well be cheaper than current RD-93 too.
Neither I nor you can definately know what PAF will look like in 2025, but my guess would be a JF-17 Block III combo, F-16 MLUs and C/Ds and the J-31
MountainPak Army Mushashak Trainer crash – Pilots safe
MountainIndian Air Force Mirage 2000 Upgrade Progresses Despite Groundings
MountainChetak helicopter crashes in Alibaug
MountainIAF AN-32 crash lands in Chandigarh, no casualties
http://www.samachar.com/IAF-AN32-crash-lands-in-Chandigarh-no-casualties-ojvaK0jegch.html
Mountain8 year old articles. Nice.
I could post many articles on such religious radicalisation in the Indian Armed Forces. I choose not to in order not to inflame things and primarily as it has little to do on an aviation website. If you think it does, please make this clear.
Post reported, and this time I really hope some action can be taken as I feel this is a real attempt to get a PAF thread locked.People should be banned instead.
MountainThanks Frank
MountainThe neighbors would be better served listening to the advice they gave Mountain a few days ago ie “Stick to your own country’s threads.”
Everyone should be allowed to contribute meaningful posts, but maybe it’s not a bad thing to users can now see what lurks under a thin veneer of “interest” in aviation. It is just nationalistic and religious hatred, and seems to come out very easily at times.
As mentioned, I reported the posts, hopefully mods will take action.
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