Stop posting bs about the IAFs professionalism. You’re clearly trolling here – or maybe we should talk about tea breaks on the PAF thread.

Wow! You really really need to relax. Most posters here (including Indians) were clever enough to get the point that Doughnuts/Chapatis/Bilinis/Cakes and deleting where applicable was a reference to the GLOBAL fact that ground crew everywhere take breaks!

However, it is telling that what was a joke was read by you, entered your mind and taken as a slight against India. It reveals so much about you.

I would be massively dissapointed if the PAF banned tea breaks!

So … the second batch of six cost more than the first? Something wrong with that picture.

Also, pretty sure it’s five aircraft in service now. =/

The flip side of the FMS deals India does is that whilst they cant negotiate much, there is very little scope for corruption as no middlemen, and they always seem to be delivered on time (sometimes even early!) with excellent after sales and spares support. Just look at the C-130J and C-17 fleets in action.

Surely a lesson in defence procurement can be learned here?

I would say that if they did skip the J10 and went for the J31, something I think makes increasing sense considering how well the JF17 is performing alongside all the new F16 it would eventually lead a three type front-line fast jet force.

Block 52 F16, retire everything else but save every part that can be used to keep the newer examples flying.
JF17, preferably with the Chinese alternative power-plant (WS13?) retrofitted once that has matured. Plus the muted upgrade to an AESA radar among other avionics changes.
J31, with as much commonality as possible (engines for example) with the JF17.

Finally in parallel maybe a look at the Chinese HQ16 or HQ9 but only with technology transfer and local production.

Yes, my only comment on that would be that after F-16 they would still want at least one western type.
PAF learnt a painful lesson with F-16 embargo that they have still not forgtten. I suspect they may never want to go with an entirely Chinese supported air force. Hence J-31 may be good, but as well as JF-17 they may keep small numbers of a high end fighter European/US just keeping in mind very worse case with China.

It really does depend upon the type of post Afghan withdrawl relationship that Pakistan has with the West.

J-31 yes, JF-17 Block III yes, but after F-16 finally goes (say by 2030), they will want at least one Western high end type. By then Pak US can be friends still or enemies. If friends, I would not completly write off the possibility of a F-35 buy

the thing about you get what you pay for comes to mind most people are happy to pay more if it turns up on time and works yes you can pay less and take a chance but you lose more in down time in the end

Absolutely spot on. Pakistan cannot afford to buy much high end equipment, so it does buy small amounts of high end stuff that it pays through the nose for (or with US aid) and at least that way they take a financial hit but at least have equipment (sometimes home made even) that does the job and is in service. They then supplement this with lower end equipment.
India is certainly a very big economy, but if you start negotiating on everything and cut corners expect massive delays, sub standard equipment or no good after sales support, as they are seeing now.

On a side note, UAE “gifted” PAF 30 Mirage 5s about 10 years ago, so they have form with regards to gifting fighter jest to Pakistan

How does Pakistan propose to fund the purchase of the UAE’s Mirage-2000-9s? Is the UAE proposing to donate these to the PAF?

No idea, it’s certainly not within their defence budget, just repeating what Alan Warnes reported in a article on the UAEAF qouting industry sources.

As I mentioned earlier though, the gifting of aircraft (UAE) and straight cash (UAE and Saudi) has happened in the recent past so who knows.

PAF (1 squadron) expected to be sole foreign partner attending AE 2014/3 this year.

AE 2014/2 saw RAF, Spain, Jordan, US, Qatar

http://www.avionews.it/index.php?corpo=see_news_home.php&news_id=1161577&pagina_chiamante=index.php

Su-30MKI engine failures worry IAF; Russia told to fix snag

New Delhi, July 20
The Sukhoi-30MKI fleet of the Indian Air Force has been encountering mid-air engine failures for the past two years. India has officially flagged the matter to Russia seeking a correction.

Repeated engine failures and the newly introduced precautionary measures have affected the availability of planes for various operations. The IAF has a fleet of 200 Sukhois.

After a failure, the engine is replaced after testing before allowing the plane to fly again. The process of removing and replacing an engine usually takes four-five days, but can be extended depending upon the damage.

As a stopgap arrangement, the Russian side had suggested some measures.

The IAF has so far not arrived at a conclusion of its findings, but as a precautionary step, it has started servicing the engine after 700 hours instead of the mandated 1,000 hours of flying, adding to the non-availability of the aircraft.

Sources said the matter was taken up at the India-Russia meeting in June this year and also in February when a Russian delegation visited the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL’s) Sukhoi-30MKI plant at Nashik.

The IAF had told Russians after studying each failure in detail that Sukhoi’s engines – AL-31FP produced by NPO Saturn of Russia – had been functioning inconsistently for the past two years (2012 and 2013). The number of single-engine landings by planes in two years is high and not healthy. It lowers the operational ability of the fleet, besides raising questions about war readiness, said sources.

A single-engine landing is necessitated after one of the power plants fails mid-air. The Sukhoi-30MKI is a twin-engine plane and a mid-air failure of one of its engines means the second engine allows it to land. Such a situation would be unacceptable during a conflict when the pilot would need an optimum speed to attack or to withdraw after an attack. The power of both engines is required to lift eight tonne of payload – missiles and rockets.

The exact number of such engine burnouts and percentage of fleet that is not available for flying at any point of time are being held back from publication in the newspaper as it would adversely impact national security. Had the Sukhoi-30MKI been a single-engine plane, like the MiG 21, all engine burnouts would have led to crashes, in some case death of pilots and the resultant furore.

The IAF and the Ministry and Defence have always considered the Sukhoi as a “safe and reliable” warplane. So far, only four have crashed since phased- induction in 1997. A pilot had died in the first crash in 2009 and at least one of the crashes is attributed to engine trouble.

Sukhoi enjoys air superiority because of its powerful engine. In horizontal flight, it can fly 2,400 km/hr or achieve a rate of climb of 230 m/s. The engines, specialised with thrust vectoring control, improves the aircraft manoeuvrability.

In northern and western India, the Sukhoi-30MKI is based at Bathinda, Halwara near Ludhiana, Sirsa, Bareilly, Jodhpur and Bhuj.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140721/main2.htm

Presumably the Chinese also have a huge stock pie of spares for the J-7/F-7 not counting those that can be reclaimed from retiring examples of the type. The Chinese apparently had a preponderance to build up huge war stocks of spares regardless of an actual need for them. A good example is the Flugwerk FW190 replica, it uses a Chinese built ASh-82. The engines came from China brand new fresh out of a packing crate, apparently the Chinese built up a large stock regardless of actual need.

Yup, spot on. The only issue is that with frontline F-7 fighters PAF is that they then have to have the Grifo radar, AIM-9M compatibility, MB ejection seats, and new RWR and chaff/flare installed. So never as easy as just pulling a plane from Chinese stocks and flying it.
Also more complicated by the fact that the F-7P is being phased out and it is only the F-7PG that will remain. Unsure how many of these China has