PinkoIt is sad that a guy who claims to know everything about the Chinese aviation does not know too much
Dec 1998 First flight two Chinese-built Su-27SK, designated J-11
So you will need to count form 1999 since in 1998 those were sent back to Russia to fix them due to the bad quality of manufacture china did.
Su-27SK/Flanker-B истребитель/ штурмовик 1996 1998-2003 (47) сделка стоимостью 1,5-2,5 млрд. долл. США, собраны в Китае, китайское обозначение “J-11”, поставка в 1998-2007/2008
see also thisГод поставки/ лицензии Сроки поставок Кол-во произведенных/ поставленных единиц
This means that Russia only delivered 47 Su-27 kits from 1998 to 2003 and that Russia will end up the delivery in the period 1998-2007 or even 2008;)
китайское обозначение “J-11”, поставка в 1998-2007/2008 гг.this means Chinese designation J-11 period of delivery 1998-2007/2008
What, now your sources conflict with each other? And you are changing course? See whose crap source first said “1st 3 years SAC manufactured 6-7 units of J11s/year”. I never claimed to be Chinese expert but certainly is just good enough here to bust your bubbles. Why the J11s manufactured in 1998 is uncountable? Because “it was sent back to Russia “ , what a crap excuse. Did Russian never return the 2 J11 or smashed the 2 J11 and give 2 new kits FOC that make your mind working out the idea: “So you will need to count form 1999”
Man, I said, you got a tracked record of posting junk, and certainly you’re enjoying yourself being fooled by them
PinkoIt says average of 15 units since 2002. so u get 15*5=75 and add 21 units of 1999/2000/2001. so u got 96 units. I doubt there would be any in 1998. It is just for a few.
that 17 in 2006 are part of Average number 15.
What can I expect from you? Even don’t know when the J11 was 1st assembled, in the same class of your partner who can’t tell apart Su30Mk from su27. just modify and tinker the original words to suit your need. We see what your buddy has done, no surprise to see you repeating the same technique :rolleyes:
PinkoSINGAN], on March 16 2006. ([Korr].[ARMS]- TASS). China as before still reliies in Russia in the program of the license production of the air-superiority fighter J -11 (Chinese version Su-27SK). However, in 2006. Chinese aircraft industry build not more than 17 machines of this type, According to the data of the experts of this publication, in October 2005. with the Ural optical-mechanical plant ([UOMZ]) was signed the agreement to the delivery to the new IRST system [OEPS]-31E. This contract became the first for the delivery of the unknown enumeration of onboard equipment, signed by Chinese customers directly with the plant. The previous transactions were conducted through the company “[Rosoboroneksport]”.
The order of an additional quantity of sights [OEPS]-31E indicates that China thus far cannot produce the aiming devices, installed on the Russian fighter Su-27SK. But in this case the attempts to enlarge the national component of equipment for J-11, are being made, including [BRLS] of the fire controlThe order of an additional quantity of sights [OEPS]-31E indicates that China thus far cannot produce the aiming devices, installed on the Russianfighter Su-27K. But in this case the attempts to enlarge the national component of equipment for J-11, are being carried out, including [BRLS] of the fire control, power plant and spare parts.
According to the information “of the OKB Sukhoi ”, in 2005. company placed in China spare parts for repairing the destroyers Su-11 for the sum of 100 million dol.
China is intended to use multipurpose radar of the fire control of the type 1474 and the new chinese domestic jet engine WS10A instead of the Russian systems. However, as experts assume, the organization of this production will require still much time.
The fire control radar of the type 1474 thus far undergoes tests on aircraft Y -8, whereas last series destroyers J -11 with factory serial numbers 16039, 16131, 30107, 20057, and also with numbers 79 and 80 are still equipped with engines AL-31F.
These aircraft now are deployed on the air divisions 2, 1, of 19, 12 and 7 people’s liberation armies of China.http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=24029&cid=25
See TASS reported that in 2006 China only built less than 17 Su-27SK so you can calculate if China is building an average of 15 aircraft since 2002 they still have not finished all the russian kits;)
You should be called a China basher not me, i am giving a good image of the Chinese governemnt saying they have respected the agreement with Sukhoi and Russia only you in your fantasies claim China is breaking the contract;)
Man, even based on your data which is not complete in the 1st place, then let we see:
1st 3 years 7/years: J11 was 1st assembled in 1998, so 1998/1999/2000 ,there are 7X3=21 units
2001? Your data not cover.
2002: 15 units
2003-2004: your data not cover
2005: 17 units as your data.
2006? Your data not cover.
If we take 2001’s output something in between 7 -15, say 10, and rest years without data cover as 15 ( at low end)
Then the total: 3 X7 + 10 + 15 + 15X3 + 17 =108 more than the 105 kits delivered.
Your data even against you.
PinkoNow i have read in Russian webpages that the J-11B is the base for a very advanced chinese fighter, that Russia wants to cooperate, that the Chinese were still assembling their J-11s in 2006 even recieving some elements from Russia among them sights.
However all the Russian reports i have read claim China has not buy more than 280 airframes among them 105 J-11s.
Nobody dispute that, only yourself are so self sentimental to say I was the liar to deny that, I refuted your claim that China bought 280 Su27s. Obviously you want to steal the meaning of original reported 280 flankers to 280 Su27SKs. China has bought 280 airframes including Su27SK, Su27UBK & Su30Mk, the detailed breakdown is 76 Su27SKs imported directly from Russia, 105 Su27SK kits from Russia and 100 Su30MKK/MK2 from Russia. The added total is 76 + 100 + 105= 281. See, the figure is tally with you always quoted.
I have read the first three years of assembly China did assemble no more than 21 aircraft in total since China had a production rate of 6 or 7 J-11s a year, and since 2002 it assembled 15 aircraft a year so it is possible they are still assembling aircraft but all are kits delivered rom Russia and modified in China even the latest J-11B.
Simply u intend to believe what you like to believe, and web is full of information so always u can find the kind of answer you like but once that answer fits you, you don’t like to assess its authentic & dn’t apply a reality check. I think in first several pages posters already give you a detailed counting of Chinese J11s and I quoted latest Kanwa report saying “A source from China said that it was to manufacture the last batch of J11A fighters in 2006”. the 15 units/year of J11 production is extremely low, but the turnover could be increase over years, do you agree? whatever you quoted only stated the SAC’s turnover of J11 in 2002, and no data after that, how you so sure, the SAC’s turnover rate of J11 is still 15 but never improved? Only If you have detailed J11 turnover rate of 2003/2004/2005/2006, and then add together, maybe you can say something? Or, otherwise, just listen to more reliable and direct sources?
You are ridiculer to suggest SAC’s J11B is tinkered around the imported su27 kit, as the kit not only contains airframe but also radar/Avionics/engine/eject seat/hud, etc, etc, because J11B is with Chinese Radar/engine/avionics/and wide angle hud. You mean SAC is throwing everything except the airframe away then modify the airframe with more composite/reducing weight etc and then finally fills in all Chinese stuff like Type 1474 slotted Array Radar, WS-10a engine, new cockpit etc, etc? How you so sure your tinkered airframe still fulfills the same stringent aerodynamic requirement of the plane with the changed TWR, the different weight & diameter of all the components. With new components, the weight distribution over the airframe is changing as well do you agree, why you want to believe miracle instead of common sense?
That sounds more plausible than saying China has open an illegal line of J-11s.
i have read China needs to upgrade her J-11s since these have very outdated avionics and it is possible since close to 60% of the Su-27s is built in China, the Chinese have modified their kits making them J-11Bs and they have been assembling them without breaking any license.
See, how a China basher going to at work, China building her J11 is at her own will and Sukhoi doesn’t object it as we observed and is not up to your mouth to judge. All a China Basher can’t forget is China is always building illegal fighter, pirated weapon etc, that’s why as long as he can achieve the bashing position, he doesn’t care common sense and reality and truth.
PinkoIm not sure what all the argument is about. As I see it:
1. Russia agreed to tranfser technology for the SU30 as well as supply airframes.
2. There must have been an exit clause in the contract cause China used it and declined to accept airframes after it started to produce airframes itself. As there was no protest from either Sukhoi or Russian Govt, this must have been allowed in the contract.
3. China is now producing J-11. They may be paying royalty to Sukhoi or not. That depends upon the contract and what it allowed.
4. China is now clearly able to produce as many flankers as it likes and modify them as it likes. As no one is protesting, i presume this again is part of the contract so no issues.I dont think either china or russia is unhappy with the situation. So whats the issue?
Point1. Russian transferred Su30 technology or not is unknown, but SAC currently is developing a 2 seat J11B variant now seemed to be called J11BS. The J11BS could be the candidate to be indigenized Su30MK .
You know what your point will irritate Floogger most? The point 4 that says “China is now clearly able to produce as many flankers as it likes and modify them as it like”. All the much ado about nothing of him is trying to against this point
PinkoYou are the lair because the Su-30 is a new denomination for an aircraft that basicly is a SU-27 either the Su-27 Flnaker B or Flanker C, of course you can not say in you mind i was wrong, but i know you can not prove China has bought more than the 280 flankers Rosoboronexport affirms and that China only built 105 Flankers 😉
Ya, in your world, black is white so no surprise to see that you count Su30Mk as Su27. of course I think Crobato is more warm hearted than me maybe he can educate you late why Su30Mk can’t be called Su27, although they have utilized an identical airframe of Flanker.
China has finished all that 105 kits by 2006, an age of manufacturing new type J11 fighters is about to start
Multiple sources from the Chinese aviation industry and the Russian military industry confirmed that the two countries were indeed negotiating on the possibility of cooperation on Su33 ship-borne fighters. A source from China said that it was to manufacture the last batch of J11A fighters in 2006, and they would continue to produce the upgraded version J11 serial fighters. In other words, the age of manufacturing new type J11 fighters is about to start. This testament indicates that China will continue to produce more J11 fighters, yet whether those fighters will be the long-rumored J11B or other newly upgrade variants, say the Chinese naval edition J11H, is not known.
http://www.kanwa.com/dnws/showpl.php?id=219(For full story, please refer to March 2007 issue of Kanwa Defense Review.)
PinkoYou are teh liar who claims robsoborontexport lies and who claims saying the true is attacking China because you are wrong, i have not attacked at any moment China but the only defense left to you is say that becasue you are wrong i have attacked China, but man be a man swallow the true as it is, you are not China, you are pinko and ROSOBORONEXPOT proves me right,
Just go straight and tell us Su27 equal to Su30Mk or not
Then we will know who is the liar.
PinkoPinko
Funny that link is from an official source more official than you imagine. of course for you in your desperate need to fantasize, can not addmit that Roboronexport, the Russian offical agency for the export of weapons can say that China bought only 280 Flankers including Su-27SK, Su-30MKK, Su-27UB and J-11 Su-27SKs (with Chinese denomination) of course you now in your fantasy you feel you can claim the Roboronexport in an article of february 2007 lies :rolleyes: Pinko who is posting junk for sure is not me
Liar, what’s your purpose to blur the line, yet again, your original words I quoted is 280 Su27, now you say Su30MKK & su30MK2 also Su27? A level like that why so eager to achieve position in order to bash China?
PinkoA) Russian sources claim China only bought 280 Su-27s, among them 110 Su-27SK license built assembled in China with some Chinese made components
What source claimed what is irrelevant especially you have a tracked record of posting junk. As long as the world knows China only directly imported 76 Su27SK from Russia and plus 105 kits for assembly in SAC. Your lie that China bought 280 Su-27s will never be the truth even you repeat 1000 times.
C) aircraft are custom built, example the Su-30MKI, MiG-27, F-2, F-15 etc etc.
China can replace the AL-31 with WS-10 and the Russians know it, once the AL-31 are paid and delivered China can modify the Su-27SK and replace its engines with Chinese built ones, since China built some components also can modify them since contracts always allow the customer to customize his or her aircraft according to her or his needs
See how the mouth can build jet plane. :rolleyes:
Pinko
Через три года завод планирует выйти на темпы производства в шесть-семь Су-27 в год, а начиная с 2002 года довести их ежегодный выпуск до 15 единиц. За качеством сборки истребителей Су-27СК на заводе в Шеньяне наблюдают более 100 российских специалистов.This clearly states that for first three years Shengyang built 6 or 7 J-11s/Su-27SKs a year and that changed in 2002 with a rate or production of 15 aircraft a year, it also says that 100 Russian technicians supervised the quality control in the Shengyang aircraft manufacturing facility, the Russians are aware where the J-11s are built and are in the aircraft manufacturing plant supervising things for Sukhoi
http://www.aviaport.ru/directory/aviation/316.html
See that the Russians claim a very low production rate this can explain you very well that The J-11B are modified kits because they have have enough time to modified the latest kits with Chinese built parts, it does not look like China has built non license airframes
here is why you can understand Russia and China consider them selves long term partners
Россия и Китай являются давними партнерами в сфере военно-технического сотрудничества. Однако, по словам главы Роспрома Б.Алешина, «в настоящее время созрели предпосылки для масштабного сотрудничества между Китаем и Россией именно в области гражданской авиации, кроме того, сейчас очень подходящее время для того, чтобы совместно выступить в качестве третьего мирового центра авиастроения, наряду с Европой и США». Исходя из этого, российская сторона предложила Китаю участие в совместном проекте по созданию больших авиалайнеров – гражданского и транспортного. «Это будет широкофюзеляжный самолет вместимостью от 275 до 350 мест, на основе которого затем будет создана и его транспортная версия», – подчеркнул Б.Алешин.
Russia and China are old partners in the sphere of military technical collaboration. However, according to Boris Aleshin, “at this moment in time there is a basis for wide collaboration between China and Russia precisely in the region of civil aviation, furthermore, now is very good time in order to create a third world center of aircraft construction composed by China and Russia, together with Europe and USA”. On the basis of this, the Russian side proposed to China her participation in joint projects for the creation of large airliners – civil and transport. “this will be the wide-body aircraft capacity from 275 to 350 places, on basis of which then will be created its transport version”, emphasized B.Aleshin.
1st, where did your quoted article say J11B is using modified Su27SK kits within that 105 units delivered? Is that your source of puting it in Russian and cheating?!
2nd, As I have said J11B is using WS-10a as feedstock if the Ws-10A at a low production rate initially then of course the receiving side J11B won’t be in high production volume,
3rd, one of your source saying SAC manufacturing only 6-7 Su27SK/J11 a year for 1st 3 years then 15 units per year since 2002, please do a simple mathematic and add the figure together, then tell us all the total added plus other Flankers delivered directly from Russia match your quoted around 280 flanker that in PLAAF/PLAN or not?! Crap as usual. The worse is your side just throw in craps and no need to do a clean till all thread was overflowed with your junk
PinkoWhat a childish way of trying prove an argument the videos do not prove those J-11B shown there are new airframes that do not belong to the 110 kits delivered by Russia, the aircraft can be kits delivered by Russia modified with new chinese designed parts, simply like that, the F-2 for example is not a F-16 in the complete sense of the word, it has many modified structures, but still is based upon the F-16 and still was built in the numbers the US and Japan agreed, also in 2006 the Russians reported they were still suplying parts for the Chinese Su-27s, this means China very likely was still asembling few Su-27SK kits specially if the Chinese content of parts was higher than the early delivered.
For the Russians the J-11B is not a secret, do not try to change my words and twist them in order to scape your own words, i have only argue that is unlikely China has violated the agreement and since publicly it has refused to build more than 110 kits it is unlikely there is a secret agreement and has build J-11s own her own without Sukhoi`s consent.
If the video doesn’t tell you, then there are various J11B photos for you to verify and there’s the Jane’s report on the J11B’s structure change of airframe, all clearly give you the indication there’re not original Su27SK kits being delivered. Also, SAC stopped importing Su27SK kits as early as 2004, now, 3 years pasted, a low manufacturing rate of around 20 J11s/year will see the outstanding kits from Russia should have been finished for assembly. Then, what’s your source saying the J11B seen in the video is from the kit? You mean the kit can accommodate a Ws-10a which is in different diameter and intake requirement of AL31F, you mean the Russian kit also address the requirement of new engine like WS-10A? See who is childish here.
BTW, I don’t see F-2/F16 link got anything to do with SAC’s J11B case.
For the Russians the J-11B is not a secret, do not try to change my words and twist them in order to scape your own words, i have only argue that is unlikely China has violated the agreement and since publicly it has refused to build more than 100 kits it is unlikely there is a secret agreement and has build J-11s own her own without Sukhoi`s consent.
So your secret Sukhoi refers to what? Please elaborate? China of course not violating any agreement only you keep suggesting this. Wow, when did you shift role become China’s public speaker, show us when China “publicly refused to build more than 100 kits”. So what secret agreement? Nobody here says there’s secret agreement except you. And you think Sukhoi & SAC’s agreement is open, show us the part that saying “China only can build no more than 100 kits”? Because currently, J11B just certificated and put into production and WS-10A’s volume is low even in 2006, so the accumulated J11B number is of course not more than the limit you set, however, that doesn’t mean SAC will only manufacture within that limit because SAC cann’t adjustify its investment in J11B/J11BS and navalized J11H, you know a factory needs to manufacture certain volume in order to break even its R & D investment. Taking for example, the FC-1 project needs at elast 400 units to break even at set price that is around 15 million USD to 20 million USD
many nations modify their aircraft with domestic products Japan and Israel are two good examples with their F-15s and F-16s, the J-11B is not the examption but it does not mean that China has opened a new line of unlicensed Su-27SKs as you are claiming.
.
J11B is not Su27sk, it’s not a license built Su27SK, it at most is an indigenized fighter jets with licensed airframe from Sukhoi. If you only limits a fighter to its look alike airframe or a shell, then that explains something.
PinkoMore of the magical especulation, secret agreements, China building secret sukhois, paying ghost royalties,
No need to blur the line, nobody even said any secret agreement except you, what I said is we are not accessible to the corporation internal memo and document which is usually classified but able to reveal actual events recorded between SAC & Sukhoi. Is that saying reasonable? If you think such internal documents are open then better still, show us here, everybody is eager to see, how many time we urge to do so already? Your high db charge of SAC violating license and refusing contract is based on what? Because all visible facts can give you a clue that SAC doesn’t have any illegal copyright issue with Sukhoi although it is building a not license built J11B? If not, sukhoi would have make the whole world know already
J11B a secret Sukhoi? Reality denier is no good, a non consistent style of debate is no good either, in previous posts, you’re saying Sukhoi is aware of J11B now you are back peddle saying J-11B is a secret Sukhoi? You are denying that J11B together with WS-10A was broadcasted in a gold time slot to the billion of Chinese in China Center TV a secret news? See the footage of that News report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37FZef0nqs
You mean the J11B featured in that famous CFTE video clip which caught attention of JANE’S, AWST a secret Sukhoi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKi31GSGMc4
even now selling Su-27s now under the individual basis Sukhoi never signed a contract for the renmant 90 Su-27SKs
sia a batch of fighters is logic not selling aircraft on the one on one basis, or course you claim the secret contract that only the iluminated like you and Crobato see and later this becomes from especulation a hard fact now i see why you call the chinese aviation news and SPECULATION,
So Israelis also never deliver the contracted Palcon & Russians never delivered their contracted IL76/78 to China, so what? Contract is revisable and can be terminated. Why Chinese must sign a contract to buy further a junk like Su27SK, you are a bully or what?! No signing means Chinese are crook all come from your honored mouth. “even now selling Su-27s now under the individual basis” yes, that’s my own thinking and I think I clearly indicated that, How come you can speculate whole your argument on no ground( Hey, show us what Document saying J11B violated any contract signed with Russian), but I can’t have a reasonable thought based on visible behavior of the firms concerned?
Eyerolling doesn’t make you be in the right.
This claims that China is building a fifth generation fighter based upon the J-11, it seesms to me that Boris Aleshin actually is talking about this aircraft
That shows your source reliability body, if u’r so ignorance to believe a source saying any 5th stealth fighter can be based on the no-way-to-be stealthy J11 airframe which is the legacy of Flanker, then I think the rest of us would even not to give u a D*mn explanation. Hey, the Russian expert of course is not in the same class of you, Boris Aleshin think any decent 5th generation fighter can be based on Flanker airframe. That’s yet another classic quote from mig23
PinkoAnd simply put, non of you have the slightest idea of the inner workings/agreements that might be between Russia/Sukhoi & PRC/SAC! :p :p :diablo: :diablo:
Yes, but you have to identify who are obviously desperate in need such a ” inner workings/agreements “paper to show here, we are comfortable with observable facts to prove one or two and no need show people top secret corporation memos but the other side need such a silver bullet against all the facts and probably you can judge that’s the only way to save his day.
😉
PinkoActually I’m thinking Sukhoi may license the Flanker airframe to SAC in the per unit basis, which means sukhoi will get some payback from SAC in some way from per unit of J11B that SAC has manufactured. In such a way, Sukhoi will get more if SAC manufactures more, all happy except one.
PinkoOr J11B is SAC indigenized fighter with license built airframe
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