The IAF is looking for fighters because its MiGs are retiring. Including the 23’s which the LCA was not to replace anyways.

Yup.

The entire production run will be gradual, and hence a decade plus plan for inducting so many planes,getting the logistics ready, plus their TOT etc is not at all unusual. If all it took was speed, look at the MKI program, its being run up by 2011, but the IAF used that to get itself leeway with the MRCA, and will use interim imports to manage as well.

What is a first world air force? Size? Or capability?

Which AF in the world now does not suffer pilot shortage?

You seem to be confused. The IAF has a pilot shortage over its maximal allotted strength for 39.5 squadrons. If the number of squadrons dip to 28, there will be a massive excess pool of pilots, as it is. Point to ponder?

Lastly, if anything, the IAFs capabilities have increased manifold- by 2011, there will be approx 190 odd Sukhois in IAF service, MKI’s with excellent A2A/A2G capbaility, a modernized ADGES, datalinks, the MiG29’s and Mirages are getting upgraded, ditto for the Jags and MiG27’s, it already has IFR, more EW assets are being purchased, with UAVs and greater emphasis on PGMs..

Even today, the IAFs capabilities are fairly extensive…
All this first world/ second world/ thrid world designation apart, it is fairly reasonable to say that the IAF can do the job its meant for, and thats what counts.

The rest is irrelevant/

Indeed, IAF is a major threat, it is very much capable of doing its job, Pakistan is not stupid to be spending billions to take care of that threat to an extent.

Qantaz write something logical, or if you really want to discuss IAF is this and that, PLAAF is this and that, J-10 and JF-17 are crap, (your Air Chief thinks otherwise 😉 ) we have another active thread for that 😉 so no more flames from you.

PAF wasnt involved in Kargil mostly due to enormous political pressure. You are claiming at one side Pakistan isnt involved and on the other side you send your airforce to provide air cover? Its common sense, you cant involve your AF in an event like that and since India didnt wanted to escalate the situation, it suited Pakistan at that time to not escalate the issue either. + Uncle was standing on the head of both sides to not escalate the situation. And we did ensure that anything that crossed the LOC didnt return to the bases in occupied Jammu and Kashmir. Granted PAF was not in good shape but that was not the reason. Cadets here are told the odds when they are about to be trained into pilots…its not about scaring out, its about the bigger picture.

Ok now 5 billion for 32 new, a dozen old F-16s + few weapons…isnt 5 billion urmm tooo much? or that includes option to upgrade the old F-16s?

These conditions are pathetic and will compromise our security. Americans will probably act rogue when Pakistan will be under Indian invasion or something. F-16s wont be able to move out, or they will simply not deliver, certain components could be disabled and I’m sure there will be intelligence agents along with F-16s. No TY.

Americans should not be given any sort of physical or wireless access to ‘our’ F-16s.

With those kind of pathetic conditions, You know, an F-16 can simply be deactivated and go ‘missing’ somehow and suddenly you have congress whining again and sanctions etc etc.

Per khair, if they’re coming from US’s so called Aid, then whats the harm. No use getting 9999 AMRAAMS when you have nothing to shoot them with heh.

Seems like the planes are very fond of weather…maybe they should think out of box…F-35 rainbow :/

So people dont want to talk about numbers 😉 , POINT MADE :D, lets move on…

If we’re talking since the disengagement, Palestinian terrorists have been firing rockets at Israeli cities even during the so called Hudna.

As if Israel has stopped assasinations, what you expect? Expect them to sit and quit while you pick and kill them off knowing you will kill civilians…you want them to sit back while IDF soldiers empty whole magazines into young girls and get away with it in courts…you want them to sit back while Palestinian children are ‘shot in the head’. ? and then you dont exactly remain a civilian after serving in the army. Its like a criminal shooting 3 people and living freely 5 years later.

It’s not about numbers here, it’s about who attacked first,

Yep, Palestinians launched V-uber back in 20s and 30s to kill Jews.

The terrorists were the ones who attacked first, it was during a ceasefire, in order to kill Israeli civilians. That’s all that matters.

Independant monitors think Palestinian family was killed on beach my Israeli shelling. And what cease fire are you talking about? Israel never declared any cease fire, it was the Hamas, which was forced to break it after the targeted murder of that family…We know Israeli shells are v. accurate and they know exactly where its going to land and on what its going to land. What matters is Olmert needs some upping of himself since Sharon is having a time of his life, people wanted war mongers, now they are all happy.

Its not only about Gaza here, More of West Bank is being stolen, same goes for East Jerusalem.

Killing Civilians is not the only form of terrorism. Ask Israeli F-16s for other forms of terrorism. Olmert said no one in Gaza should be able to sleep, THAT is terrorism, that is collective punishment. People who went through Holocaust…are now using collective punishment..against others, its an insult to the victims of Holocaust, atleast respect them if you dont consider Palestinians humans, atleast respect your ancestors.

The Palestinians attack unarmed civilians, and in Shalit’s case, a military position outside of their territory. Israel attacks people who are planning to carry out terror attacks before they manage to execute them, so Israel’s capturing and killing of Palestinian terrorist is justified. The capturing/killing of of innocent people is terrorism – the capturing/killing of armed terrorists who plan attacks on Israel is not.

Lets no even talk about which territory belongs to whomee.

Palestinians caught Shalit before he and his tank party could carry out terror attacks in Palestine and execute them. So Palestine’s capturing and killing of Israeli terrorists is justified. The capturing/killing of innocent people is terrorism – the capturing/killing of armed terrorists who plan attacks on Palestine is not.

next point..
How many Palestinian prisoners are in Israeli jails…without Trial..Erez and I agree that capturing of innocent people is terrorism, I want to see how many Palestinian civilians are in Israeli jail without trial and how many Israeli civilians are in Palestinian jails, we’ll assume the civilised notion of not guilty until proven….lets see… :diablo:

The only thing that bothers me is the amount of double standards involved here…the ‘free world’ sees one soldier captured, and does not sees hundreds of women and children in Israeli jails without trials in independant and neutral courts….is that the civilised western world? Uncle caveman was better.

Gaza and West Bank and Jerusalem are very real Erez.
Even Hamas has indirectly accepted Israel’s existence, however that news was over shadowed by the recent events.

Unfortunately, the people who came closest to peace for both of these nations are both dead, one was killed by extremist, the other was forced to ill health by actions of extremists he could not control.

Sorry to say but Extremists have won on both sides.

Anyway,

Anyone got the numbers of how many Palestinians rockets been fired into Israel compared to the Shells and missiles Israel has fired into Palestinian terroritories…

Again, it’s a real shame that the Palestinian population is suffering, but who holds the resonsibility for that? Israel, or the Palestinian terrorists?

Ok, IDF kills or ‘captures’ Palestinian gunmen, its not terrorism, but if Palestinians do the same its terrorism? Terrorism isnt involved one bit in Shalit’s case.

I want to see how many Israeli civilians have been killed by 100s of Qassams and I want that compared to how many civilians have been killed by Israeli shelling and Missile attacks.

The numbers will speak for themselves. Period.

I cannot verify these numbers but here they are:

In 2006, 176 Palestinians were killed, compared to 16 Israelis killed. 8300 Israeli shells were launched into Gaza this year compared with 840 Palestinian rockets into Israel.

Erez has Israel recognised Palestine with free borders, air , sea and land in their control?

I understand that you don’t believe it yourself, but the reason it didn’t come up until now is the fact that there is one Israeli family in the Galilie who doesn’t sleep at night for the last ten days. Everybody realizes that this kidnapping is very real.

There are millions in Gaza who cant sleep every night. Shocking you failed to see that. 1 Israeli family cannot be compared to entire population of Gaza, atleast not from a sane person like you Erez.