MadRatAnd that’s it. Exactly two real potential customers, both of them pretty unlikely. How many billions are you willing to bet on either of those buying a CVF?
Why not co-op use them within the EU with Italy, Spain, and the Netherlands? (Co-opting crews and costs of running them would save quite a lot of money in the long run.) Quite frankly the best thing they could do is renew a global geopolitical alliance that includes India, South Africa, Australia, and Canada. Sharing the burden of one large carrier and one vtol carrier would allow the five to project quite a bit of influence around the world for common goals. Or maybe they could simply barter off the Invincibles – versus scrapping them – to Australia, Brazil, India, Japan, or Canada. They might want them for humanitarian relief rather than a military mission. Brazil or India may not want to buy them outright, but leasing isn’t a bad option if the UK could recall them in the future if necessary. Japan would need to use them without fighters I believe, but they should consider the notion as they are getting more involved worldwide in administrating disaster relief.
MadRatI did see mention somewhere that the Su-27 weapon system was proposed for the MiG-31. Engineering limitations of the R-27 missiles at the time made it implausible and it was never given the green light to proceed. Apparently the nose cones on the missiles were not designed for sustained supersonic missions. I’m surprised they didn’t reapply the idea when newer missiles became available.
MadRatI wish we could get one of these MiG-25P’s for the SAC Museum near Omaha, NE. That would look nice next to the bombers from the Cold War.
MadRatI excluded some of the Balkans because I didn’t know what to do with them. Would the western coastal Balkans fit more into District 4 or somewhere else? And we always have that issue, what weapons do you standardize around. There is a lot of Russian equipment mixed in with weapons from other origins. I’m not seeing them being too excited about selling to Districts aligned across from them. From guns to bombs to missiles to communications, this exercise could quickly become futile.
MadRatThe key to them being able to self designate is if they have the kit to do it. The ability being tide to peripherals isn’t the same as an inherent function. I know it’s splitting hairs, but that is how one justifies saying the F-22 is not multirole.
MadRatBy those harsh standards you’d have to say quite a few multirole aircraft are not truly multirole. I think multirole is being confused with multipurpose. Not all F-16’s are equipped to fly wild weasel. Nor can most of them self designate. Nor are they supporting NGJ. So by that definition F-16’s are not multirole.
MadRatI’m surprised that the MiG-25’s weren’t good candidates for a SLEP program of some type for export models. I can understand the reluctance to export MiG-31 initially, but wouldn’t the technology behind the export Flankers and the D30 turbofans of the MiG-31 have made a pretty deadly fighter against western counterparts?
Think late-90’s MiG-25 with a standoff attack using R-77 guided by a N001 Zhuk pulse-Doppler lookdown-capable radar and SUV-27 fire control system. WVR engagement using R-73E and Shchel-3UM helmet-mounted target designator from the MiG-29. Not to be confused with a dogfighter; even with the Flanker caveats it would be restricted to slash and burn attacks on enemy fighters. Mating those active guidance missiles to the raw straight-line performance of a Foxbat surely evokes fear.
MadRatIn 2008 the Azerbaijan AF had 5 MiG-25 (no specific version claimed) in service, and Kazakhstan had 16 MiG-25 and 42 MiG-31. This was from flightglobal’s published getasset.pdf file.
MadRatToo bad you couldn’t catapult launch the B version while it’s in semi-VTOL trim to get it up with much more load.
MadRatThat would be amazing if some still flying other than the two-seater abomination for the tourist outfit. The two-seat trainer just looks so hideous. But the long nose of the RB version is my favorite. I’m surprised so many P models have been early retired considering the low hours the Soviets had on their airframes. I can imagine the geopolitical trouble the exported models would conjure up with a more modernized radar and decent active guidance missiles.
MadRatInteresting points there, swerve. The logic of my pairings followed geopolitical influences, location, and cultures. Here were the districts I came up with and their associated equipment. Districts 1-4 are roughly equal whereas Districts 5-7 are likewise roughly equal. It’s tricky to clump these groupings into equal sizes due to the economic gradient from west to east and north to south within Europe. There are typos, so don’t be too critical.
DISTRICT 1 – France, Portugal, Spain (includes Azores, Canary Islands, French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Madeira, Martinique, Reunion)
GDP 2.08+.23+1.36=3.64
Heavy Jet Fighter: EF-2000 Typhoon (72 Spain), Rafale C (36 France), EF-18A Hornet (77 Spain)
Heavy Jet Trainer: EF-2000B Typhoon (33 Germany, 15 Spain), Rafale B (11 France), EF-18B Hornet (12 Spain)
Medium Jet Fighter: Jaguar (60 France**), F-16A Fighting Falcon (21 Portugal)
Medium Jet Trainer: Alphajet (149 France, 22 Portugal), F-16B Fighting Falcon (6 Portugal), Mirage F1B (13 France, 4 Spain), Mirage 2000B/BG (23 France)
Light Jet Fighter: Mirage 2000C (62 France), Mirage 2000D (90 France), Mirage 2000-5 (34 France), Mirage F1C (93 France, 40 Spain)
Light Jet Trainer: CASA C-101 (73 Spain), Northrop SF-5B (20 Spain)
Prop Trainer: Aérospatiale TB-30 Epsilon (105 France, 16 Portugal), EMB 312 Tucano (44 France), ENAER T-35C Devil (35 Spain)
Carrier-capable: Rafale M (37 France), Super Etendard (45 France), EAV-8B Harrier II (16 Spain), TAV-8B Harrier (1 Spain)
Dedicated Nuke Strike:Mirage 2000N (50 France)
Tanker Aircraft: Airbus A400M (50 France, 27 Spain), KC-135R (14 France), KC-707/137 (2 Spain), KC-130 (5 Spain)
Command/Early Warning Aircraft: E-3/AEW.1 Sentry (4 France), E-2 Hawkeye AEW (3 France), Boeing 707 EW (1 Spain), Transall C.160 Gabriel ELINT (2 France), CASA C-212 Aviocar EW (1 Spain), CASA C-212 Aviocar Recce (10 Spain)
Heavy Transport Aircraft: Airbus A310 (3 France, 2 Spain), Airbus 319/319CJ (2 France), Airbus A340 (2 France), Airbus A400M (50 France, 27 Spain), Boeing 707 (1 Spain)C-130 Hercules (14 France, 6 Portugal, 8 Spain)
Medium Transport Aircraft: Aérospatiale N 262 (17 France), CN-235 (20 France, 20 Spain), C-295 (7 Portugal, 15 Spain), Gulfstream IV/V (4 Spain), Transall C.160 (52 France)
Light Transport Aircraft: Beechcraft 90/350 King Air (1 Spain), CASA C-212 Aviocar (13 Portugal, 50 Spain), Cessna Citation V/Excel (2 Spain), Cessna Citation II/VII (4 Spain), DHC-6 Twin Otter (5 France), EADS Socata TBM 700/850 (27 France), Embraer EMB 121 Xingu (43 France), Falcon 10/100 (6 France), Falcon 20/200 (5 France, 4 Spain), Falcon 50/900 (6 France, 3 Portugal), Pilatus PC-6 Porter (5 France)
Transport/Utility Helicopter: CH-47 Chinook (18 Spain), NH90 TTH (12 France, 10 Portugal, 45 Spain), Augusta AW101 (12 Portugal), EC 725 Cougar (14 France), EC 135 (11 Spain), EC 120 Hummingbird (12 Portugal, 15 Spain), AS 555 Fennec (61 France), AS 350/355 Squirrel (5 France), SA 321 Super Frelon (9 France), Super Puma (34 France, 39 Spain), SA 330 Puma (162 France, 4 Spain), Dauphin (16 France), Sea King (7 Spain), Sikorsky Spirit (8 Spain), Alouette III (11 Portugal), Huey/Iroquois (50 Spain), Twin Huey (14 Spain), SA 341/342 Gazelle (275 France), MD500 Defender (8 Spain), MBB Bo 105 (25 Spain)
Maritime Patrol Aircraft: P-3 Orion MPA (7 Portugal, 7 Spain), Breguet Atlantique 1/2 MPA (25 France), C-295 MPA (5 Portugal), CASA C-212 Aviocar MPA (6 Portugal), Fokker F27 MPA (3 Spain), Fokker 50 MPA (4 France)
Maritime Helicopter: NHI NH90 NFH (27 France), Sikorsky S-60 Sea Hawk (12 Spain), Aérospatiale SA 316/319 Alouette III (28 France), Eurocopter SA 365/565 Dauphin (8 France), Westland Lynx/Sea Lynx (32 France, 5 Portugal)
Combat Helicopter: Eurocopter EC 665 Tiger (81 France, 24 Spain), OH-58 Kiowa (5 Spain)
EW Helicopter: Eurocopter AS 532 ELINT Horizon (4 France), Sikorsky ASH-3 Sea King AEW (4 Spain)
DISTRICT 2 – Austria, Germany, Switzerland
GDP .32+2.80+.30=3.42
Heavy Jet Fighter: EF-2000 Typhoon (15 Austria, 145 Germany), Tornado IDS (166 Germany), Tornado ECR (33 Germany), F-18C Hornet (26 Switzerland*), F-4F ICE Phantom II (76 Germany)
Heavy Jet Trainer: F-4F Phantom II (5 Germany), F-18D (7 Switzerland*), Tornado IDS (13 Germany)
Medium Jet Fighter:
Medium Jet Trainer:
Light Jet Fighter: F-5E/F Tiger II (8 Austria, 59 Switzerland*)
Light Jet Trainer: Saab 105 (28 Austria), T-37 (47 Germany), Northrop T-38 (46 Germany)
Prop Trainer: Pilatus PC-7 (16 Austria, 37 Switzerland*), Pilatus PC-9 (11 Switzerland*), Pilatus PC-21 (6 Switzerland*)
Carrier-capable: NONE AVAILABLE
Dedicated Nuke Strike:NONE AVAILABLE
Tanker Aircraft: Airbus A400M (60 Germany), Airbus A310 MRTT (4 Germany)
Command/Early Warning Aircraft: Breguet Atlantique 1 EW (2 Germany)
Heavy Transport Aircraft: Airbus A310 (7 Germany), Airbus 319/319CJ (2 Germany), Airbus A340 (2 Germany), Airbus A400M (60 Germany), C-130 Hercules (3 Austria)
Medium Transport Aircraft: C-295 (2 Switzerland*), Transall C.160 (84 Germany)
Light Transport Aircraft: Beechcraft 90/350 King Air (1 Switzerland*), Beechcraft 1900 (1 Switzerland*), Cessna Citation V/Excel (1 Switzerland*), DHC-6 Twin Otter (1 Switzerland*), Dornier Do 228 (2 Germany), Falcon 50/900 (1 Switzerland*), Pilatus PC-6 Porter (16 Switzerland*)
Transport/Utility Helicopter: NH90 TTH (80 Germany), EC 635 (16 Switzerland*), EC 135 (14 Germany), Sea Stallion (96 Germany), Super Puma (26 Switzerland*), Sikorsky S-70 (9 Austria), Dauphin (1 Switzerland*), SA 316/319 Alouette III (24 Austria,48 Switzerland*), Huey/Iroquois (192 Germany), JetRanger (11 Austria), Twin Huey (23 Austria), MBB Bo 105 (196 Germany)
Maritime Patrol Aircraft: P-3 Orion MPA (8 Germany), Breguet Atlantique 1/2 MPA (3 Germany)
Maritime Helicopter: Westland Sea King (20 Germany), Westland Lynx/Sea Lynx (22 Germany)
Combat Helicopter: Eurocopter EC 665 Tiger (81 Germany), OH-58 Kiowa (11 Austria)
EW Helicopter: NONE AVAILABLE
DISTRICT 3 – Belgium, Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, United Kingdom
GDP .38+.19+.04+.65+2.13=3.01
Heavy Jet Fighter: EF-2000 Typhoon (194 United Kingdom), Tornado F3 (62 United Kingdom), Tornado GR4 (114 United Kingdom)
Heavy Jet Trainer: EF-2000B Typhoon (36 United Kingdom)
Medium Jet Fighter: Jaguar (39 United Kingdom**), F-16A Fighting Falcon (56 Belgium, 97 Netherlands)
Medium Jet Trainer: Alphajet (29 Belgium), F-16B Fighting Falcon (14 Belgium, 15 Netherlands)
Light Jet Fighter:
Light Jet Trainer: Hawk M51/51A/128/T1 (126 United Kingdom)
Prop Trainer: Aermacchi SF.260 (32 Belgium), Grob G 115 (99 United Kingdom), Pilatus PC-7 (13 Netherlands), Pilatus PC-9 (8 Ireland), Shorts Tucano T.1 (84 United Kingdom)
Carrier-capable: Harrier GR9 (65 United Kingdom), Harrier T.10/12 (9 United Kingdom)
Dedicated Nuke Strike:NONE AVAILABLE
Tanker Aircraft: Airbus A400M (25 United Kingdom, 7 Belgium, 1 Luxembourg), KDC-10 (2 Netherlands), Airbus A330 MRTT (14 United Kingdom), Vickers VC-10 (16 United Kingdom), KC-1 Tristar (6 United Kingdom)
Command/Early Warning Aircraft: E-3/AEW.1 Sentry (7 United Kingdom), Nimrod R1 ELINT (3 United Kingdom), Raytheon Sentinel AEW (4 United Kingdom), Sentinel R1 Recce (5 United Kingdom), Beechcraft 200/350 King Air Recce (13 United Kingdom), BN-2 Islander Recce (13 United Kingdom), CN-235 Recce (2 Ireland)
Heavy Transport Aircraft: Airbus A310 (2 Belgium), Airbus A400M (7 Belgium, 1 Luxembourg, 25 United Kingdom), Douglas DC-10 (1 Netherlands), C-1 Tristar (3 United Kingdom), C-17 Globemaster III (6 United Kingdom), C-130 Hercules (10 Belgium, 4 Netherlands, 43 United Kingdom)
Medium Transport Aircraft: BAe 125/Hawker 800 (16 United Kingdom), BAe 146 (2 United Kingdom), EMB-135/145 (4 Belgium), Fokker 50 (4 Netherlands), Gulfstream IV/V (1 Netherlands)
Light Transport Aircraft: Beechcraft 200 Super King Air (1 Ireland), Jetstream 31 (12 United Kingdom)
Transport/Utility Helicopter: CH-47 Chinook (22 Netherlands, 48 United Kingdom), NH90 TTH (10 Belgium,20 Netherlands), Augusta AW101 (27 United Kingdom), SA 313/318 Alouette II (5 Belgium), SA 316/319 Alouette III (3 Belgium), Super Puma (17 Netherlands), SA 330 Puma (35 United Kingdom), AS 350/355 Squirrel (35 United Kingdom), EC 135 (2 Ireland), Augusta AW139 (6 Ireland, 4 United Kingdom), Augusta A109 (28 Belgium,9 United Kingdom), SA 341/342 Gazelle (108 United Kingdom), Dauphin (4 United Kingdom), Twin Huey (3 Netherlands, 22 United Kingdom), Mil Hip (2 United Kingdom)
Maritime Patrol Aircraft: Nimrod MPA (33 United Kingdom), Bombardier Dash 8 MPA (2 Netherlands)
Maritime Helicopter: Augusta AW101 (38 United Kingdom), Westland Sea King (85 United Kingdom), Aérospatiale SA 316/319 Alouette III (4 Netherlands), Westland Future Lynx (70 United Kingdom), Westland Lynx/Sea Lynx (164 United Kingdom, 21 Netherlands)
Combat Helicopter: AH-64 Apache (29 Netherlands, 67 United Kingdom)
EW Helicopter: NONE AVAILABLE
DISTRICT 4 – Croatia, Greece, Italy, Macedonia, Malta, Slovenia
GDP .07+.33+1.80+.02+.01+.06=2.29
Heavy Jet Fighter: EF-2000 Typhoon (106 Italy), Tornado IDS (57 Italy), Tornado ECR (18 Italy), F-4E PI 2000 (35 Greece), RF-4E Phantom II (22 Greece)
Heavy Jet Trainer: EF-2000B Typhoon (15 Italy), Tornado IDS (10 Italy)
Medium Jet Fighter: F-16A Fighting Falcon (29 Italy), F-16C Fighting Falcon (119 Greece)
Medium Jet Trainer: AMX-T (18 Italy), F-16B Fighting Falcon (4 Italy), F-16D Fighting Falcon (42 Greece), MiG-21U Mongol (4 Croatia*), Mirage 2000B/BG (3 Greece), TA-7C (13 Greece)
Light Jet Fighter: AMX (60 Italy), A-7E/H Corsair II (51 Greece), MiG-21bis Fishbed (12 Croatia*), Mirage 2000EG (26 Greece), Mirage 2000-5 (17 Greece)
Light Jet Trainer: Alenia Aermacchi M-346 (15 Italy), MB-339 (93 Italy), T-2 Buckeye (41 Greece)
Prop Trainer: Aermacchi SF.260 (45 Italy), Scottish Aviation Bulldog T1 (4 Malta), Pilatus PC-9 (20 Croatia*, 11 Slovenia), PZL-130/142 Spotted Eagle (8 Slovenia), T-6 Texan (45 Greece), Zlin 142/242L (5 Croatia*)
Carrier-capable: AV-8B Harrier II (15 Italy), TAV-8B Harrier (2 Italy)
Dedicated Nuke Strike:NONE AVAILABLE
Tanker Aircraft: KC-767 (4 Italy), KC-130 (1 Italy)
Command/Early Warning Aircraft: C-130H Hercules EW (2 Greece), EMB-145 Ericsson Erieye (4 Greece), G.222 EW (1 Italy)
Heavy Transport Aircraft: Airbus 319/319CJ (3 Italy), C-130 Hercules (13 Greece, 21 Italy)
Medium Transport Aircraft: Antonov An-24/26/32 (2 Croatia*),Bombardier Challenger (1 Croatia),C-27J Spartan (12 Greece, 12 Italy),EMB-135/145 (2 Greece),G.222 (2 Italy),Gulfstream IV/V (1 Greece),Learjet 60 (1 Malta),NAMC YS-11 (1 Greece)
Light Transport Aircraft: Beechcraft 200 Super King Air (3 Greece), BN-2 Islander (2 Malta), Dornier Do 28 Skyservant (6 Greece), Dornier Do 228 (3 Italy), Falcon 50/900 (7 Italy), Let L-410 Turbolet (1 Slovenia), Piaggio P.180 Avanti (18 Italy), Pilatus PC-6 Porter (2 Slovenia)
Transport/Utility Helicopter: CH-47 Chinook (15 Greece, 44 Italy), NH90 TTH (20 Greece, 60 Italy), Super Puma (10 Greece, 4 Slovenia), EC 145 (1 Malta), Sea King (58 Italy), Sikorsky S-70 (11 Greece), Twin Huey (7 Greece, 71 Italy, 5 Slovenia), Alouette III (2 Greece, 5 Malta), Augusta A109 (29 Italy), Huey/Iroquois (99 Greece, 66 Italy), JetRanger (9 Croatia*,15 Greece, 67 Italy, 3 Slovenia), Mil Hip (19 Croatia*), MD500 Defender (47 Italy, 1 Malta)
Maritime Patrol Aircraft: P-3 Orion MPA (6 Greece), Breguet Atlantique 1/2 MPA (16 Italy)
Maritime Helicopter: NONE AVAILABLE
Combat Helicopter: AH-64 Apache (28 Greece), Agusta A129 Mangusta (59 Italy)
EW Helicopter: Augusta AW101 AEW (4 Italy), Bell 212/412 ELINT Twin Huey (6 Italy, 1 Greece)
DISTRICT 5 – Czech Republic, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia
GDP .25+.19+.06+.62+.11=1.23
Heavy Jet Fighter: MiG-29 Fulcrum (4 Hungary, 28 Poland, 10 Slovakia)
Heavy Jet Trainer: MiG-29UB Fulcrum (1 Hungary, 8 Poland, 2 Slovakia)
Medium Jet Fighter: F-16C Fighting Falcon (36 Poland), Su-22 Fitter (50 Poland)
Medium Jet Trainer: F-16D Fighting Falcon (12 Poland)
Light Jet Fighter: JAS 39C/D Gripen (14 Czech Republic ,14 Hungary), L-159 (67 Czech Republic)
Light Jet Trainer: L-39 (32 Czech, 1 Estonia, 8 Hungary, 6 Lithuania, 15 Slovakia), L-159T (4 Czech Republic), PZL TS-11 Spark (106 Poland)
Prop Trainer: PZL-130/142 Spotted Eagle (38 Poland), Yak-52 (11 Hungary), Zlin 142/242L (8 Czech)
Carrier-capable:
Dedicated Nuke Strike:NONE AVAILABLE
Tanker Aircraft: NONE AVAILABLE
Command/Early Warning Aircraft: Antonov An-30 Recce (1 Czech)
Heavy Transport Aircraft: Airbus A310 (2 Slovakia), Airbus 319/319CJ (1 Czech), Boeing 707 (4 Slovakia), C-17 Globemaster III (3 Hungary), C-130 Hercules (5 Poland), Tupolev Tu-154 (2 Poland)
Medium Transport Aircraft: Antonov An-24/26/32 (5 Czech, 6 Hungary, 3 Lithuania, 11 Poland, 2 Slovakia), Bombardier Challenger (1 Czech), C-27J Spartan (3 Lithuania), C-295 (11 Poland), Yakovlev Yak-40 (2 Czech, 6 Poland)
Light Transport Aircraft: Antonov An-28 Cash/PZL M28 Skytruck (30 Poland), Let L-410 Turbolet (8 Czech, 2 Lithuania, 7 Slovakia)
Transport/Utility Helicopter: Twin Huey (1 Poland), Mil Hip (34 Czech, 26 Hungary, 7 Lithuania, 51 Poland, 17 Slovakia), PZL W-3 Falcon (9 Czech, 61 Poland), PZL SW-4 Tawny Owl (74 Poland)
Maritime Patrol Aircraft: NONE AVAILABLE
Maritime Helicopter: Mil Mi-14 Haze (13 Poland), Kaman SH-2 Seasprite (4 Poland)
Combat Helicopter: Mil Mi-2 Hoplite (5 Czech, 2 Lithuania, 109 Poland, 4 Slovakia), Mil Mi-24/25/35 Hind (18 Czech, 17 Hungary, 27 Poland, 17 Slovakia)
EW Helicopter: NONE AVAILABLE
DISTRICT 6 – Bulgaria, Cyprus, Romania, Turkey
GDP .09+.02+.25+.85=1.21
Heavy Jet Fighter: F-4E/F Phantom II (71 Turkey*), F-4E 2020 Terminator (52 Turkey*), RF-4E Phantom II (32 Turkey*), MiG-29 Fulcrum (7 Bulgaria)
Heavy Jet Trainer: MiG-29UB Fulcrum (4 Bulgaria)
Medium Jet Fighter: F-16C Fighting Falcon (190 Turkey*), Su-25 Frogfoot (5 Bulgaria)
Medium Jet Trainer: F-16D Fighting Falcon (57 Turkey*), MiG-21U Mongol (3 Bulgaria), Su-25UB Frogfoot (4 Bulgaria)
Light Jet Fighter: F-5A/B Freedom Fighter (50 Turkey*), F-5 2000 (43 Turkey*), MiG-21bis Fishbed (12 Bulgaria), MiG-21 Lancer (80 Romania)
Light Jet Trainer: IAR 99 Hawk (19 Romania), L-39 (27 Bulgaria), T-37 (59 Turkey*), Northrop T-38 (67 Turkey*), Northrop NF-5A/B (38 Turkey*)
Prop Trainer: Aermacchi SF.260 (37 Turkey*), KAI KT-1 (40 Turkey*), Pilatus PC-9 (6 Bulgaria, 1 Cyprus), Yak-52 (16 Romania)
Carrier-capable: NONE AVAILABLE
Dedicated Nuke Strike:NONE AVAILABLE
Tanker Aircraft: Airbus A400M (10 Turkey*), KC-135R (7 Turkey*)
Command/Early Warning Aircraft: Boeing 737 AEW&C MESA (4 Turkey*), CN-235 EW (1 Turkey*), Antonov An-30 Recce (1 Bulgaria, 3 Romania), Beechcraft 200/350 King Air Recce (2 Turkey*)
Heavy Transport Aircraft: Airbus 319/319CJ (1 Turkey*), Airbus A400M (10 Turkey*), Boeing 707 (1 Romania), C-130 Hercules (5 Romania, 13 Turkey*)
Medium Transport Aircraft: Antonov An-24/26/32 (5 Bulgaria,15 Romania), C-27J Spartan (5 Bulgaria, 7 Romania), CN-235 (42 Turkey*), Transall C.160 (17 Turkey*)
Light Transport Aircraft: BN-2 Islander (1 Cyprus), Let L-410 Turbolet (5 Bulgaria), Pilatus PC-12 (1 Bulgaria)
Transport/Utility Helicopter: Mil Hip (11 Bulgaria, 4 Cyprus, 7 Romania), Super Puma (12 Bulgaria, 45 Turkey*), SA 330 Puma (77 Romania), Alouette III (14 Romania), Dauphin (6 Bulgaria, 3 Romania), Sikorsky S-70 ( 79 Turkey*), Huey/Iroquois (245 Turkey*), JetRanger (6 Bulgaria, 35 Turkey*), SA 341/342 Gazelle (4 Cyprus)
Maritime Patrol Aircraft: CN-235 MPA (7 Turkey*), ATR 72 MPA (10 Turkey*)
Maritime Helicopter: Mil Mi-14 Haze (4 Bulgaria)
Combat Helicopter: Agusta A129 Mangusta (50 Turkey*), AH-1 Cobra (26 Turkey*), Mil Mi-24/25/35 Hind (7 Bulgaria, 12 Cyprus), OH-58 Kiowa (3 Turkey*)
EW Helicopter: Bell 212/412 AEW Twin Huey (3 Turkey*)
DISTRICT 7 – Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Latvia, Norway, Sweden
GDP .20+.03+.19+.01+.04+.25+.34=1.06
Heavy Jet Fighter: F-18C Hornet (55 Finland)
Heavy Jet Trainer: F-18D (7 Finland)
Medium Jet Fighter: F-16A Fighting Falcon (49 Denmark, 47 Norway*)
Medium Jet Trainer: F-16B Fighting Falcon (13 Denmark, 10 Norway*)
Light Jet Fighter: F-5A/B Freedom Fighter (5 Norway*), Hawk Mk66 (18 Finland), JAS 39A/B Gripen (82 Sweden), JAS 39C/D Gripen (100 Sweden)
Light Jet Trainer: Saab 105 (106 Sweden), Hawk M51/51A/128/T1 (49 Finland)
Prop Trainer: Aermacchi M-290 (10 Finland)
Carrier-capable: NONE AVAILABLE
Dedicated Nuke Strike: NONE AVAILABLE
Tanker Aircraft: NONE AVAILABLE
Command/Early Warning Aircraft: Saab 340 S100B AEW (6 Sweden), Falcon 20 EW (2 Norway*)
Heavy Transport Aircraft: C-17 Globemaster III (3 Sweden), C-130 Hercules (4 Denmark), C-130 Hercules (9 Norway*, 8 Sweden)
Medium Transport Aircraft: C-295 (2 Finland), Fokker F27 (2 Finland), Saab 340 TP100 (3 Sweden)
Light Transport Aircraft: Falcon 20/200 (1 Norway*), Learjet 35 (3 Finland), Let L-410 Turbolet (1 Latvia), Rockwell Sabreliner 40 (2 Sweden)
Transport/Utility Helicopter: NH90 TTH (20 Finland, 6 Norway*, 14 Sweden), Augusta AW101 (14 Denmark), Sea King (5 Belgium, 7 Denmark), Super Puma (7 Sweden), Mil Hip (2 Finland, 3 Latvia), Augusta A109 (20 Sweden), Twin Huey (18 Norway*), MD500 Defender (5 Finland), MBB Bo 105 (17 Sweden), Robinson R44 (2 Estonia)
Maritime Patrol Aircraft: P-3 Orion MPA (6 Norway*)
Maritime Helicopter: NHI NH90 NFH (6 Norway*, 5 Sweden), Westland Sea King (12 Norway*), Westland Lynx/Sea Lynx (6 Norway*)
Combat Helicopter:
EW Helicopter: NONE AVAILABLE
MadRatSo is the T-50, Su-35S, Su-34, Su-33, and Su-27SM all going to use a common engine base in the 2012-2020 timeframe? If that is so then I’d be surprised they still ordered MiG-29 derivatives. Sounds like they’d be better off with a single-engine fighter for their LO mission profiles to save effort and money in the long run.
T-50 = HI end, 5 gen, multirole stealth assets (uses Al-41F, to use 117C?)
Su-35S = HI end, 4.5 gen, multirole superagile assets (uses 117S)
Su-34 = HI end, 4.5 gen, multirole nuclear strike assets (uses Al-35F, to use 117C?)
Su-33 = HI end, 4th gen, multirole naval strike assets (uses Al-31F, to use 117C?)
Su-27SM = HI end, 4th gen, multirole assets (uses Al-31F, to use 117C?)
MadRatFrom a 2008 thread……
You would best work long term towards compatible systems by beginning to work with distinct districts that fairly match equipment tastes and the human intangibles like the languages and cultures. You could probably form at least seven districts to soften the merge.
DISTRICT 1 – France, Portugal, Spain
DISTRICT 2 – Austria, Germany, Switzerland
DISTRICT 3 – Belgium, Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, United Kingdom
DISTRICT 4 – Croatia, Greece, Italy, Macedonia, Malta, Slovenia
DISTRICT 5 – Czech Republic, Hungary, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia
DISTRICT 6 – Bulgaria, Cyprus, Romania, Turkey
DISTRICT 7 – Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Latvia, Norway, Sweden
DISTRICT 8 – International Peace keepers
This is the circa-2014 EU Air Force projected in 2008, not the 2010 EU Air Force. We are fast forwarding approximately several years ahead. Some of the listed items are mothballed by now, like the F-4E/F’s in a few services. Also some of the listed items now currently in today’s inventories will be removed from service as the new equipment comes online. We want to keep the mothballed units in just to see what could potentially be operated as a reserve force or perhaps as some sort of foreign legion. Opinions will obviously vary on this aspect of the exercise.
And to keep things less complicated the similar models built under license are mostly grouped under one common type. Technically an Augusta-Bell Model 209 is not going to be the same as a stateside manufactured Model 209. And there are so many different models customized for different countries and environments, but I took the liberty to consolidate those numbers into one Model 209 group. See how the problem grows?
PROP TRAINER:
Aermacchi SF.260 (32 Belgium, 45 Italy, 37 Turkey*)
Aermacchi M-290 (10 Finland)
Aérospatiale TB-30 Epsilon (105 France, 16 Portugal)
Scottish Aviation Bulldog T1 (4 Malta)
EMB 312 Tucano (44 France)
ENAER T-35C Devil (35 Spain)
Grob G 115 (99 United Kingdom)
KAI KT-1 (40 Turkey*)
Pilatus PC-7 (16 Austria, 13 Netherlands, 37 Switzerland*)
Pilatus PC-9 (6 Bulgaria, 20 Croatia*, 1 Cyprus, 8 Ireland, 11 Slovenia, 11 Switzerland*)
Pilatus PC-21 (6 Switzerland*)
PZL-130/142 Spotted Eagle (38 Poland, 8 Slovenia)
Shorts Tucano T.1 (84 United Kingdom)
T-6 Texan (45 Greece)
Yak-52 (11 Hungary, 16 Romania)
Zlin 142/242L (5 Croatia*, 8 Czech)
LIGHT JET TRAINER:
Alenia Aermacchi M-346 (15 Italy)
CASA C-101 (73 Spain)
Hawk M51/51A/128/T1 (49 Finland, 126 United Kingdom)
IAR 99 Hawk (19 Romania)
L-39 (27 Bulgaria, 32 Czech, 1 Estonia, 8 Hungary, 6 Lithuania, 15 Slovakia)
L-159T (4 Czech Republic)
MB-339 (93 Italy)
T-2 Buckeye (41 Greece)
T-37 (47 Germany, 59 Turkey*)
Northrop T-38 (46 Germany, 67 Turkey*)
Northrop NF-5A/B (38 Turkey*)
Northrop SF-5B (20 Spain)
PZL TS-11 Spark (106 Poland)
Saab 105 (28 Austria, 106 Sweden)
MEDIUM-HEAVY JET TRAINER:
Alphajet (29 Belgium, 149 France, 22 Portugal)
AMX-T (18 Italy)
EF-2000B Typhoon (33 Germany, 15 Italy, 15 Spain, 36 United Kingdom)
F-4F Phantom II (5 Germany)
F-16B Fighting Falcon (14 Belgium, 13 Denmark, 4 Italy, 15 Netherlands, 10 Norway*, 6 Portugal)
F-16D Fighting Falcon (42 Greece, 12 Poland, 57 Turkey*)
EF-18B Hornet (12 Spain)
F-18D (7 Finland, 7 Switzerland*)
MiG-21U Mongol (3 Bulgaria, 4 Croatia*)
MiG-29UB Fulcrum (4 Bulgaria, 1 Hungary, 8 Poland, 2 Slovakia)
Mirage F1B (13 France, 4 Spain)
Mirage 2000B/BG (23 France, 3 Greece)
Su-25UB Frogfoot (4 Bulgaria)
TA-7C (13 Greece)
TAV-8B Harrier (2 Italy, 1 Spain)
Harrier T.10/12 (9 United Kingdom)
Tornado IDS (13 Germany, 10 Italy)
LIGHT WEIGHT CLASS:
AMX (60 Italy)
A-7E/H Corsair II (51 Greece)
F-5A/B Freedom Fighter (5 Norway*, 50 Turkey*)
F-5E/F Tiger II (8 Austria, 59 Switzerland*)
F-5 2000 (43 Turkey*)
Hawk Mk66 (18 Finland)
JAS 39A/B Gripen (82 Sweden)
JAS 39C/D Gripen (14 Czech Republic, 14 Hungary, 100 Sweden)
L-159 (67 Czech Republic)
MiG-21bis Fishbed (12 Bulgaria, 12 Croatia*)
MiG-21 Lancer (80 Romania)
Mirage 2000C (62 France)
Mirage 2000D (90 France)
Mirage 2000EG (26 Greece)
Mirage 2000-5 (34 France, 17 Greece)
Mirage F1C (93 France, 40 Spain)
MEDIUM WEIGHT CLASS:
Jaguar (60 France**, 39 United Kingdom**)
F-16A Fighting Falcon (56 Belgium, 49 Denmark, 29 Italy, 97 Netherlands, 21 Portugal, 47 Norway*)
F-16C Fighting Falcon (119 Greece, 36 Poland, 190 Turkey*)
Su-22 Fitter (50 Poland)
Su-25 Frogfoot (5 Bulgaria)
HEAVY WEIGHT CLASS:
EF-2000 Typhoon (15 Austria, 145 Germany, 106 Italy, 72 Spain, 194 United Kingdom)
F-4E/F Phantom II (71 Turkey*)
F-4E PI 2000 (35 Greece)
F-4E 2020 Terminator (52 Turkey*)
RF-4E Phantom II (22 Greece, 32 Turkey*)
F-4F ICE Phantom II (76 Germany)
EF-18A Hornet (77 Spain)
F-18C Hornet (55 Finland, 26 Switzerland*)
MiG-29 Fulcrum (7 Bulgaria, 4 Hungary, 28 Poland, 10 Slovakia)
Rafale B (11 France)
Rafale C (36 France)
Tornado F3 (62 United Kingdom)
Tornado IDS (166 Germany, 57 Italy)
Tornado GR4 (114 United Kingdom)
Tornado ECR (33 Germany, 18 Italy)
CARRIER-CAPABLE:
Harrier GR9 (65 United Kingdom)
EAV-8B Harrier II (16 Spain)
AV-8B Harrier II (15 Italy)
Rafale M (37 France)
Super Etendard (45 France)
DEDICATED NUKE STRIKE:
Mirage 2000N (50 France)
TANKER AIRCRAFT:
Airbus A310 MRTT (4 Germany)
Airbus A330 MRTT (14 United Kingdom)
KC-1 Tristar (6 United Kingdom)
KDC-10 (2 Netherlands)
KC-130 (1 Italy, 5 Spain)
KC-135R (14 France, 7 Turkey*)
KC-707/137 (2 Spain)
KC-767 (4 Italy)
Lockheed TriStar (6 United Kingdom)
Vickers VC-10 (16 United Kingdom)
COMMAND &/or EARLY WARNING AIRCRAFT:
Antonov An-30 Recce (1 Bulgaria, 1 Czech, 3 Romania)
Beechcraft 200/350 King Air Recce (2 Turkey*, 13 United Kingdom)
BN-2 Islander Recce (13 United Kingdom)
Boeing 707 EW (1 Spain)
Boeing 737 AEW&C MESA (4 Turkey*)
Breguet Atlantique 1 EW (2 Germany)
Breguet Atlantique 1/2 ELINT (3 Germany)
CASA C-212 Aviocar EW (1 Spain)
CASA C-212 Aviocar Recce (10 Spain)
C-130H Hercules EW (2 Greece)
CN-235 EW (1 Turkey*)
CN-235 Recce (2 Ireland)
E-2 Hawkeye AEW (3 France)
E-3/AEW.1 Sentry (4 France, 7 United Kingdom)
EMB-145 Ericsson Erieye (4 Greece)
Falcon 20 EW (2 Norway*)
G.222 EW (1 Italy)
Nimrod R1 ELINT (3 United Kingdom)
Raytheon Sentinel AEW (4 United Kingdom)
Saab 340 S100B AEW (6 Sweden)
Sentinel R1 Recce (5 United Kingdom)
Transall C.160 Gabriel ELINT (2 France)
LIGHT TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT
Antonov An-28 Cash/PZL M28 Skytruck (30 Poland)
Beechcraft 90/350 King Air (1 Spain, 1 Switzerland*)
Beechcraft 200 Super King Air (3 Greece, 1 Ireland)
Beechcraft 1900 (1 Switzerland*)
BN-2 Islander (1 Cyprus, 2 Malta)
CASA C-212 Aviocar (13 Portugal, 50 Spain)
Cessna Citation V/Excel (2 Spain, 1 Switzerland*)
Cessna Citation II/VII (4 Spain)
DHC-6 Twin Otter (5 France, 1 Switzerland*)
Dornier Do 28 Skyservant (6 Greece)
Dornier Do 228 (2 Germany, 3 Italy)
EADS Socata TBM 700/850 (27 France)
Embraer EMB 121 Xingu (43 France)
Falcon 10/100 (6 France)
Falcon 20/200 (5 France, 1 Norway*, 4 Spain)
Falcon 50/900 (6 France, 7 Italy, 3 Portugal, 1 Switzerland*)
Jetstream 31 (12 United Kingdom)
Learjet 35 (3 Finland)
Let L-410 Turbolet (5 Bulgaria, 8 Czech, 1 Latvia, 2 Lithuania, 7 Slovakia, 1 Slovenia)
Piaggio P.180 Avanti (18 Italy)
Pilatus PC-6 Porter (5 France, 2 Slovenia, 16 Switzerland*)
Pilatus PC-12 (1 Bulgaria)
Rockwell Sabreliner 40 (2 Sweden)
MEDIUM TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT (>20T MTOW):
Aérospatiale N 262 (17 France)
BAe 125/Hawker 800 (16 United Kingdom)
Antonov An-24/26/32 (5 Bulgaria, 2 Croatia*, 5 Czech, 6 Hungary, 3 Lithuania, 11 Poland, 15 Romania, 2 Slovakia)
BAe 146 (2 United Kingdom)
Bombardier Challenger (1 Croatia, 1 Czech)
C-27J Spartan (5 Bulgaria, 12 Greece, 12 Italy, 3 Lithuania, 7 Romania)
CN-235 (20 France, 20 Spain, 42 Turkey*)
C-295 (2 Finland, 11 Poland, 7 Portugal, 15 Spain, 2 Switzerland*)
EMB-135/145 (4 Belgium, 2 Greece)
Fokker 50 (4 Netherlands)
Fokker F27 (2 Finland)
G.222 (2 Italy)
Gulfstream IV/V (1 Greece, 1 Netherlands, 4 Spain)
Learjet 60 (1 Malta)
NAMC YS-11 (1 Greece)
Saab 340 TP100 (3 Sweden)
Transall C.160 (52 France, 84 Germany, 17 Turkey*)
Yakovlev Yak-40 (2 Czech, 6 Poland)
LARGE TRANSPORT AIRCRAFT (>70T MTOW):
Airbus A310 (2 Belgium, 3 France, 7 Germany, 2 Slovakia, 2 Spain)
Airbus 319/319CJ (1 Czech, 2 France, 2 Germany, 3 Italy, 1 Turkey*)
Airbus A340 (2 France, 2 Germany)
Airbus A400M (7 Belgium, 50 France, 60 Germany, 1 Luxembourg, 27 Spain, 10 Turkey*, 25 United Kingdom)
Boeing 707 (1 Romania, 4 Slovakia, 1 Spain)
Douglas DC-10 (1 Netherlands)
C-1 Tristar (3 United Kingdom)
C-17 Globemaster III (3 Hungary, 3 Sweden, 6 United Kingdom)
C-130 Hercules (3 Austria, 10 Belgium, 4 Denmark, 14 France, 13 Greece, 21 Italy, 4 Netherlands, 9 Norway*, 5 Poland, 6 Portugal, 5 Romania, 8 Spain, 8 Sweden, 43 United Kingdom, 13 Turkey*)
Tupolev Tu-154 (2 Poland)
TRANSPORT &/or UTILITY HELICOPTERS
Aérospatiale SA 313/318 Alouette II (5 Belgium)
Aérospatiale SA 316/319 Alouette III (24 Austria, 3 Belgium, 2 Greece, 5 Malta, 11 Portugal, 14 Romania, 48 Switzerland*)
Aérospatiale SA 321 Super Frelon (9 France)
Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma (162 France, 77 Romania, 4 Spain, 35 United Kingdom)
Aérospatiale SA 341/342 Gazelle (4 Cyprus, 275 France, 108 United Kingdom)
Augusta A109 (28 Belgium, 29 Italy, 20 Sweden, 9 United Kingdom)
Augusta AW101 (14 Denmark, 12 Portugal, 27 United Kingdom)
Augusta AW139 (6 Ireland, 4 United Kingdom)
Bell 204/205/UH-1 Iroquois (192 Germany, 99 Greece, 66 Italy, 50 Spain, 245 Turkey*)
Bell 206 JetRanger (11 Austria, 6 Bulgaria, 9 Croatia*, 15 Greece, 67 Italy, 3 Slovenia, 35 Turkey*)
Bell 212/412 Twin Huey (23 Austria, 7 Greece, 71 Italy, 3 Netherlands, 18 Norway*, 1 Poland, 5 Slovenia, 14 Spain, 22 United Kingdom)
Boeing CH-47 Chinook (15 Greece, 44 Italy, 22 Netherlands, 18 Spain, 48 United Kingdom)
Eurocopter AS 332/532 Super Puma (12 Bulgaria, 34 France, 10 Greece, 17 Netherlands, 4 Slovenia, 39 Spain, 7 Sweden, 26 Switzerland*, 45 Turkey*)
Eurocopter AS 350/355 Squirrel (5 France, 35 United Kingdom)
Eurocopter AS 365/565 Dauphin (6 Bulgaria, 16 France, 3 Romania, 1 Switzerland*, 4 United Kingdom)
Eurocopter AS 555 Fennec (61 France)
Eurocopter EC 120 Hummingbird (12 Portugal, 15 Spain)
Eurocopter EC 135 (14 Germany, 2 Ireland, 11 Spain)
Eurocopter EC 145 (1 Malta)
Eurocopter EC 635 (16 Switzerland*)
Eurocopter EC 725 Cougar (14 France)
Hughes MD500 Defender (5 Finland, 47 Italy, 1 Malta, 8 Spain)
MBB Bo 105 (196 Germany, 25 Spain, 17 Sweden)
Mil Mi-8/9/17/171 Hip (11 Bulgaria, 19 Croatia*, 4 Cyprus, 34 Czech, 2 Finland, 26 Hungary, 3 Latvia, 7 Lithuania, 51 Poland, 7 Romania, 17 Slovakia, 2 United Kingdom)
NHI NH90 TTH (10 Belgium, 20 Finland, 12 France, 80 Germany, 20 Greece, 60 Italy, 6 Norway*, 10 Portugal, 45 Spain, 14 Sweden)
PZL W-3 Falcon (9 Czech, 61 Poland)
PZL SW-4 Tawny Owl (74 Poland)
Robinson R44 (2 Estonia)
Sikorsky S-61/HH-3/SH-3 Sea King (5 Belgium, 7 Denmark, 58 Italy, 7 Spain)
Sikorsky S-65/CH-53 Sea Stallion (96 Germany)
Sikorsky S-76 Spirit (8 Spain)
Sikorsky S-70 (9 Austria, 11 Greece, 79 Turkey*)
MARITIME PATROL AIRCRAFT:
ATR 72 MPA (10 Turkey*)
Breguet Atlantique 1/2 MPA (25 France, 16 Italy)
Bombardier Dash 8 MPA (2 Netherlands)
CASA C-212 Aviocar MPA (6 Portugal)
CN-235 MPA (7 Turkey*, 2 Ireland)
C-295 MPA (5 Portugal)
Fokker F27 MPA (3 Spain)
Fokker 50 MPA (4 France)
Nimrod MPA (33 United Kingdom)
P-3 Orion MPA (8 Germany, 6 Greece, 6 Norway*, 7 Portugal, 7 Spain)
MARITIME HELICOPTERS
Aérospatiale SA 316/319 Alouette III (28 France, 4 Netherlands)
Augusta AW101 (38 United Kingdom)
Eurocopter SA 365/565 Dauphin (8 France)
Kaman SH-2 Seasprite (4 Poland)
Mil Mi-14 Haze (4 Bulgaria, 13 Poland)
NHI NH90 NFH (27 France, 20 Netherlands, 6 Norway*, 5 Sweden)
Sikorsky S-60 Sea Hawk (12 Spain)
Westland Lynx/Sea Lynx (32 France, 22 Germany, 21 Netherlands, 6 Norway*, 5 Portugal, 164 United Kingdom)
Westland Future Lynx (70 United Kingdom)
Westland Sea King (20 Germany, 12 Norway*, 85 United Kingdom)
COMBAT HELICOPTERS
AH-1 Cobra (26 Turkey*)
AH-64 Apache (28 Greece, 29 Netherlands, 67 United Kingdom)
Agusta A129 Mangusta (59 Italy, 50 Turkey*)
Eurocopter EC 665 Tiger (81 France, 81 Germany, 24 Spain)
OH-58 Kiowa (11 Austria, 5 Spain, 3 Turkey*)
Mil Mi-2 Hoplite (5 Czech, 2 Lithuania, 109 Poland, 4 Slovakia)
Mil Mi-24/25/35 Hind (7 Bulgaria, 12 Cyprus, 18 Czech, 17 Hungary, 27 Poland, 17 Slovakia)
ELECTRONIC WARFARE HELICOPTERS
Augusta AW101 AEW (4 Italy)
Bell 212/412 AEW Twin Huey (1 Greece, 3 Turkey*)
Bell 212/412 ELINT Twin Huey (6 Italy)
Eurocopter AS 532 ELINT Horizon (4 France)
Sikorsky ASH-3 Sea King AEW (4 Spain)
And if you think the airplanes & helicopters are complicated, just try to pull stats on the potential missiles that an EU Air Force would operate! Its even more insane than the overly simplified list I put together.
MadRatMy crystal ball tells me that the RN will shift towards F-35C and stop talking nonsense about going F/A-18F.
MadRatThink about it :
The mirage 2000-5 radar was not good enough for the UAE so they asked for the developement of the RDY-2 radar.
The F-16bk52 radar was not good enough for the UAE so they asked for the developement of the APG-80 radar.
Now the rafale radar is not good enough for them so they asked for a boosted RBE-2AA version.
Makes you wonder, with the UAE always trying to on one hand one up each purchase they pursue and secondly insist on participation by such a diverse crowd of competitors in their war games, if there isn’t some ulterior motives for all these requests. Are they intending to make their own some day? Seems like they like to be very involved with the bleeding edge of ‘technology’.
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